Ivorak

closed closed but i still feel i need to make a clarification here.

woodcutters belong to LR and YES that means it comes with citizenship and YES it means woodcutters need to respect the rules of the land and their king too.

You might see this as unfair because such a big advantage of controlling the guild that gathers such a resource comes to one single land... but you are missing the big picture here. Each land will have such an advantage somehow, because each gathering guild will belong to one or the other land.

This guild needs to belong to LR because the majority of this resource is located there and the purpose of the guild is not to consume it all but to understand the rules of the forest and gather it wisely. this means their interest should be with loreroot and not against it. Just imagine the guild belonging to necrovion and gathering wood resources in loreroot...

When the miners guild will be assigned to golemus, you will probably have all this arguing allover again.

This thread is getting heated up.

Fact: Mur himself has "apologised" for not confering with the King before dropping the guild in his land.
This shows Mur understood that without preplanning and consultation its gonna be an added stress, but changes need to be implemented. Lets move on and deal with it.

Fact: There are only 4 Kings. Firsan did what he did and said what he said.
Does everyone want him to say it with flowers and pretty please? Only the other 3 Kings will understand the pressure of running a land. Anyone can say and criticise the King, but in the end, the King will need to clean up the mess in his land if it does get messy.

Fact: The King wanted to speak with the leader and was answered with we are one.
If this is RL, and my staff said that, I would have chewed that person up and spit him out by the roadside. Dont start with some idealistic crap about diplomatic, polite and all that crap. That answer was crap and got a reply from the King that was abrupt. I would have understood if the King wanted to F that answer. His reply to me was restrained. It could have been worse.

Fact: Woodcutters are in Loreroot, whether its mechanics, technical or just plain luck.
This means Woodcutters are under the care of the Loreroot King, whether anyone likes it or not. Meaning good or bad, the King will be effected.

Lets drop all the noise about who is doing what.

Woodcutter's leader needs to speak to the King.

This is between them.

If you think the King is going to screw up the Woodcutters, let him do it and everyone can crucify him then.

Every father has their own way to raise their son, but we shouldnt be shoving down their throats whats right or wrong.

Peace Out!

You're talking about two seperate things: The issues brought up in my earlier post, and then citizenship for most of your supposed reply. I will deal with these two things seperately, even though you seem to think they fit perfectly together.
Your reply to me:
Firstly, simply because you were once a leader, that does not give you the knowledge and understanding of how it all works. Not to mention, of course, that your statement that "some form of structure" hurts alliances is the complete opposite of what Firs is trying to make the Woodcutters do! By forcing them to get into a certain structure, they could well make a hasty decision and do exactly what you're describing, yet you still back this up! Lesson learned, you say? Think again.
Secondly, what does it matter if they get organized before or after the actual guild is formed? Ever heard of a grace period? Do these sort of things not exist in your mind?

Now, as for the rest of your post:
You start by saying that there could be another "Savel situation". The "Savel situation" you're referring to was caused by months of tension and negativity between two people, and then finally one small thing happened that blew up, and Princ ended up in jail. Now, comparing it to this issue, the Woodcutters had existed for all of one day, and I'm assuming that Firs has had little or no past interaction with most of the members. How could another "Savel situation" happen unless one party was immediately rude and disrespectful to the other party?

After that, you say that you know from experience that just throwing a guild into another land can cause a big issue. How can you know from experience? You've never made or moved a guild, that's what Mur does.

As for your next paragraph, it pertains to RL, and not MD, so why would it apply? Mur makes the rules in MD.

And then your last two paragraphs, yes the guild is part of Loreroot, and that IS because of mechanics, but what isn't part of mechanics is the king himself, the human element, and really, I'm quite sure that if this had happened in Necrovion or Marind Bell first, this sort of thing wouldn't have happened, or at least would've been done in private.

[quote name='Fyrd Argentus' date='12 August 2010 - 12:13 AM' timestamp='1281564819' post='65839']
I am suggesting that we consider these "guilds" to be a lesser thing that true alliances, such that you can be a citizen, and alliance member, and a guild member.
[/quote]
Mur has explicitly stated guild members cannot also be alliance members. Furthermore I abhor the notion of guilds being less than an alliance. They are different, but that does not imply one is better than the other. Half of the 'old' alliances aren't even remotely connected to fighting, which made me wonder why guilds - which are also not about fighting - even need special treatment. However I'm told mp5s are relentless in attacking everybody they can, which could pose problems for lower mp level players. [i]- before anyone bothers: I am not afraid of mp5, that 'ultimate fighting' level just fails to interest me.[/i]

That aside, I too wonder if there will be enough players interested in joining a guild with their 'main'.


@Ivorak: the crafters have always claimed neutrality. And I've never seen them behave otherwise. Whether this should extends to guilds that are assigned a land I don't know. If we look at reality, guilds often had local branches in every land or a competing guild of sorts. If the lands were to have all resources and thus become self sufficient, that'd be boring and purpose defeating.

I know I'm not in the guild, but may I suggest a Nut Sack for collecting nuts from trees?

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' date='10 August 2010 - 03:28 PM' timestamp='1281482903' post='65688']

Currently i still need to do a tool for gathering tree bark and resin, the others are done.
Also, i am not sure if you create more tools or fewer tools than the guild member count.

please post name suggestions for other tools you might use to gather the resources described in the announcement
[/quote]

Hoedad - a planting tool (Shouldn't woodcutters be concerned with making sure that we replace what we take?)
Lopper - trims branches off of a tree trunk
Chipper - takes branches and scrap wood and chips them into a mulch
Bark Spud - removes bark from tree
Drip Tap - for collecting sap

And some basic research that I found regarding sap collection:

To collect maple sap (for making maple syrup), a small hole is drilled into a living tree and a drip tap is installed which allows a small amount of sap extracted into a bucket which hangs from the tap.

Pine Sap is collected in a similar way and is used for mixing with paint as a thickener an to create resin artwork. Pine sap can also be used to create a natural chewing gum and a type of solvent like turpentine.

Rubber Tree Sap can be refined into natural rubber (latex).

Birch sap is high in Vitamin C and has been used to cure scurvy. It can also be boiled to create a tonic that is said to help arthritis. It can also be made into wine or beer.

Sap (various types) has also been used as an adhesive and for dressing wounds. Some have astringent properties and stop bacterial infections.

Gum arabic, derived from acacia tree sap, is used in gumdrops, marshmallows and other candies (also envelope & stamp gum) .

I think that what Chewy is really getting at, is having a situation whereby a player has an alt in multiple guilds, especially if it is one in each land.
As the guilds are not combative and are neutral in that sense, then there really isn't an issue of conflicted interest as such. Although there could be if a person was more willing to sell or give materials to a member of their main's land or indeed pass things on to their alts for their alts to benefit from.
I for one have no issue with someone that has an alt in Golemnus or anywhere else having a character in the Woodcutters. I would have an issue with said alt passing stuff to their alts or chums though, or dealing unfairly with people.

I also don't want to see a situation where essentially the same person is turning up in every alliance/guild in MD. That is a personal viewpoint, but there it is. It is my impression that some people that joined the Woodcutters had no interest in joining Loreroot as a citizen and indeed may have held some animosity towards it. I find it galling to think that people will just jump into the guild simply because of what it is and no other consideration, like where it is. I hope I am wrong in this and apologies to anyone that feels I am being unfair, but it is my personal view on the matter. I already feel that citizenship is not treated properly by many people and some people think of alliances as nothing more than frat/social clubs. That is part of the reason why I don't always reply to people that want to join the Guardians, sometimes I let them do the chasing. If they don't, then perhaps they were not that serious to begin with. Personally, I'd rather one committed individula in the alliance than any number of Johnny come lightly types.

Late note: I would also like to point out that at least one person wanted to change who was in the guild (by that I mean their alts). To me this instantly screams of having no regard to keeping alts separate and distinct. You may disagree, but that is how I see it.

[quote name='Chewett' date='11 August 2010 - 11:29 AM' timestamp='1281540584' post='65779']
I am Currently worried about the many conflicts of intrest that people are going to have if you are going to let people with multiple alts and multiple affliations into these NEUTRAL guilds.
[/quote]

I agree that a conflict of interests will certainly arise with a number of alts spread through the resource guilds. However, I'm not sure if there should a be a strict rule against it, or if it is possible to run the guilds based on trust between the members.

But the main reason for my reply, is not what I think, but what I don't know. Are these guilds really neutral? I am aware that the guilds are traditionally neutral, but then again, the traditional guilds were centered in neutral lands because of this. If the resource guilds are expected to be neutral, I see one of the greatest benefits of the new gathering/crafting system, that being the intrigue and craftiness of politics, going out the window.

So, could you point out to me where it is said the new guilds are neutral, if such a statement from Mur exists? (I'm not saying it doesn't; in all likelihood I missed it among the spread of new threads on the topic.)

[quote name='apophys' date='11 August 2010 - 02:12 AM' timestamp='1281510747' post='65720']
This is how I see it:

Loreroot - carpentry
MDA - agriculture
Underground - mining (gems, gold, coal, etc)
Necrovion - metalworking (iron, copper, and other metal ores)
Golemus - masonry (marble, granite, etc; quarries)
Tribunal - ceramics
Marind Bell - fishing
Labyrinth - weaving
No Man's Land - animal products (could be moved to MB if you don't want a No Man's guild)
[/quote]

Gardening in MB
Fishing in Loreroot

[quote name='Ratsplat' date='10 August 2010 - 08:42 PM' timestamp='1281487347' post='65694']
There should be a mining guild, or some way to mine, to go along with the recently added woodcutting guild and woodcutting/resource gathering.

Forest like areas wouldnt be very good to mine in, though places like golemus, necrovion, and hopefully the underground tunnels under MB (since my role puts me in that area).

You would be able to mine different types of ore of course, maybe fossils, lost equipment... anything youd think you can find in a chunk of rock. This stuff would be used to make equipment, enhance your creatures, stat boosts, etc...
[/quote]

Its nice that you are trying to come up with ideas in regards to the new "feature". But seriously use some common sense and at least give Mur some credit. This is just one of the very basics that will be made (DUH). At least Pamplemousse did come up with something outside of the box as an expansion to thing that would there, IE: advance alchemy.

I don't know whether the new Resource-Based Guilds have all been decided upon, but if they have not, I would like to offer up an idea.

It is my understanding that the guilds will be, in a way, hierarchical.
For example:

1. Primary (wood cutter, ore minor)
2. Secondary (carpenter, smelter)
3. Tertiary (wooden handle, metal blade)

I thought it would be interesting to have a [b]Farmer/Gardener[/b] (primary), [b]Herbalist/Apothecary[/b] (secondary), [b]Drugs/Poisons/Elixirs[/b] (tertiary).

Considering the resources available to us in MD, the Gardeners could tend (or receive items in relation to) [b]animals, herbs/plants, minerals, shells, fungus and even bees[/b]. They could be recruited to create totems, which could have healing properties but also a symbolic and spiritual significance, as well as the drugs, poisons, elixirs, etc.

The Lands of the East, in my opinion, could be a great place to house this Guild. ([i][size="1"]Again, these are just my thoughts and suggestions, I'm [b]not[/b] suggesting that I know what is best for any land or group.[/size][/i]) They have [b]trees and gardens and fields for planting, a kitchen for mixing as well as a pub for dispensing. [/b]

Also, the temple is a source of healing (ancient cultures used "sleep temples" to induce trances and meditation, or to present sacrifices and fasting for healing and purification.)

I think it is an idea that could lead to revenue and increased interest and roles in lands and individuals.

I'm sure there are those of you who know much more about this subject than I do, and I would love to hear your constructive criticism.

P.S. At this time, I have no interest in being in charge of something like this, but the idea is intriguing to me, nonetheless.

[quote]I hope I am not offending anyone of I post the woodcutters guild under LR, if so, your king should tell me (based on your complains of course, if any).[/quote]

Well, I am as much in the dark here as anyone else really. Does the guild reside in a particular land? Will it be part of Loreroot and therefore its members citizens, or will it be a non-land entity that merely happens to harvest the resources of lands? How does that place the land whose resources are being harvested?
If the guild is supposed to be part of the land, then perhaps its membership should only be open to citizens? The reason I say this, is because I am getting the sense that it will simply be seen as the next shiny thing for the magpies to want.
Not to sound negative, but currently there seems to be an impression that alliances and citizenship in general are just clothes that can be changed or discarded when a person feels like it. Guilds or groups which suddenly seem to offer a new skill or ability are obviously going to draw attention and to me at least, it feels that people with a sense of loyalty are the ones that will be let down, while the magpies will simply move on to pastures new with more exciting shiny bits to feather their nests. Again, it may sound negative, but it is at the very least something that could be considered for the future, which can have a positive outcome.

[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' date='08 August 2010 - 07:23 PM' timestamp='1281291796' post='65417']
I would like us, the community, to list here all the problems SG makes or might have and good things it does or can do, and then act upon it however.
[/quote]

After spending some time in SG to have a look about its "issues" and talking to several of the new mp3's i dont actually see any issues.

They complain when one person comes in, shouts a bit at them and sometimes the attacker runs off, and sometimes they will apolgise.

I dont think that someone attacking now and then is a bad thing. It means its not a sanctuary like place, where you will never get attacked without you wanting to. It means that people can train with less than normal amount of attacks.

The Way its currently set up, people uphold it themselves. I like the fact that the people using it are the ones "running" it.

We can all go "this is wrong" "that is wrong" "it should be run this way" But we dont know because we dont use it. Some of you may entertain the foolish notion that you know "best" for something. But for an area that you dont use, thinking you know best, is probably a little close to fantasy.

Overall i dont think there are any issues with the current system, and from the people i spoke to, they really liked it as it is.

You said you were repeating what you have said because people were just saying "no its not" well surely the lack of people giving you ideas to improve it, means its fine as it is?

[size="4"][b]Mourn acquired this story from a travelling writer, who no longer needed it.[/b][/size]
[i](the following is entirely fictional and inspired by Ailith's contest. However, due to my lack of reading the fine print, didn't quite meet the parameters of the quest.)[/i]


[u]after downloading [/u]
-click view>slide show
-left click to move to the next page

[attachment=1867:thepathofloneliness.ppt]

Of course you will need to speak to Kyphis about this, But i believe your primary role is the first line. Then he lists things that he thinks you might be able to help with. I dont really see an issue with other people doing similar things.

And i wouldnt agree with because an alliance does something, you should merely let them do it. I havent seen the LS do any "help with papers" yet have seen a lot of others help their friends with it, would you propose stopping them also?

Even if your primary role was to help with papers, there is nothing wrong with comptition? And anyway, who in the LS is helping people with papers currently? if that is one of your main roles why arnt you posting a forum topic similarly.

On another note, your guild role should probably be posted in the forum for others to read.

[quote name='Curiose' date='06 August 2010 - 06:00 PM' timestamp='1281114007' post='65271']
[u][b]Primary Role [/b][/u]

The Legend Speakers are the Storytellers and Keepers of Traditions in the realm. We work with words and art, as well as movement, to entice crowds, teach morals, and aid the youngsters.

[b][u]Some of the services we offer[/u][/b] include Story, Poetry, and Music writing, [b]help with editing your papers[/b], crafting character roles, and providing encouragement. We can also be contacted to work with Quest Creators in terms of NPC roles, on top of any normal lyrical works.
[/quote]

I think these two Key parts are worth remembering.

Firstly the help with editing your papers is not one of their primary roles. And secondarily help with editing your papers is something that is a service being offered. And like all services, there are numerous competitors. However if i am wrong and Kyphis is claiming sole "right" to be helping people with papers, then he is being foolish.

You have just sat in the one location people are competing in a contest where you fight to be the best and because you got attacked you have just accused me of being greedy, cheating and targeting you and not only that but then you ran off. These are very serious accusations you made - and i find it extremely offensive.

and now you offend the very game itself and expect me to feel sorry for you.

If you had just taken the time to say Z could you stop attacking me because of [insert reason] then it would have been fine, but instead you decided first to ask me to attack you one more time and then to get annoyed and insult and accuse me when I did.

You're not in a good mood? well, well done because now neither am I.


No not whatever. I havent done anything wolfs so i have nothing to be guilty about.

I was GOE ... I was interested in heads contest.. Oneday, i will be a winner of the contest
I was in the park..
Someone come to the park, I couldnt understand what he is saying ...

he was talking about alt abue and cheating...

I couldnt understand what he is talking about ??

There is no excuse, that is why i want you to put it into public. You have a forum account - use it. If you don't, I will.

I don't have to prove anything to you. You are the one making accusations with absolutely 0 evidence do you realise that?

You still havent actually said what people at the dojo have apparently accused me of? Who has said i have done something and what exactly have I done supposedly?

I have attacked everyone, noobies, vets, friend or foe.

Im sorry if you want to quit, I don't want you to quit, but you cannot call me a cheat and a liar and expect me to ignore that.

Here is the forum post:
http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/7614-personal-heads-accusation-from-wolfs/

If you want to call me anything at all, you can call me it there.


The Phoenix is his friend... What do you want from me ? and i gave up the head contest I told you The Phoenix will know ...
I just had 19 scores ... i didnt care about heads.

I was there to talk....
You were too offensive ..

I believe The truth always comes out . in the case, One of us will feel guilty ... but im not.

what's the point of the topic?

I wasnt kind any veterans here. because i didnt like them..

I'm really bad guy? you guys criticized the press' witch-hunting reports.. What?


summary

in the park someone who talk about head contest.. alt abuse & cheating

I couldnt understand them...

I was GOE for 2days to look around & study about how to make effective rituals from veteran users.
When i had seen nad-- & sis-- etc, I couldnt understand they have enough vital & heads against Z
for 2days~

just get Mp4 cant win any contest if this kind of abusing work .. it will make us that not interested in game...

So i got mad at him.. I sended the message.

Sorry for English grammer ...

Sorry Mur

I was working on the answer but i only had my Ipod on my for net access
internet is not good on it to be honest and a bit slow.
I am not finished my writings on it but if you wish i can still send it on
later just for though.

Note i am not a colladge persion or anything like that but
sometimes one does not need to be for a good answer

I disagree with Pipstick and phantasm.
Negative reputation is all about what you write in that specific post.

For example,
- if you write stuff that is offensive, you will get "neg rep".
- but if you write something interesting ... and ppl like it ... you might notice a positive reputation for that specific post.
- I think that it was a months ago when on the same page, for the same player, I gave a positive reputation and a negative one. There were 2 ideas, one good and one stupid (in my opinion).

So ..

Consider that giving a reputation point (+ / -) as your own 2 cents on his/her post.

In the end, if you notice that you have a lot of neg rep ... you should ask yourself why.

Consider it as the fastest feedback you can give / get.

(that if you really care what others think about you)

I hope it's the right place to start this kind of topic.

The issue is that there is a lot of veterans talking about what scare the newbies, but few (if any) newbies talk about that. By another hand, maybe it's normal newbies give up the game before even read something in the forum. Again, it's just a theory.

I don't want to offend the vets, but if a newbie want to give up the MD he/she opinion is better than an MP5 theory. Of course, if a newbie don't understand the game mechanism, he/she could talk about foolish things (probabily it will happen a lot). But, even in this case, we will have the chance to learn how to teach them. Please, avoid sarcams. It's ok, in my opinion, attack without mercy someone ideias (the ideias change), but not the person himself.

If just one or two newbies write anything on this topic it's enought for me.

Half full, half empty, or as the engineers would say -- the glass is the wrong size. This is about expectations. If your expectations don't fit what is in the game, change them! MD is a unique game in that the players create the game as they go along. If you're not happy with what is going on, remember that you have the power to shape it -- just like in real life.

I don't know any other computer game where players can create games within games (quests) for other players.

I was talking to another MDer in the hated YIM just now, and it really struck me: there's an air of mournfulness, of negativity, that needs a balancing opinion. Since I am an active vet, I'd like to add my two bits. Some may want to accuse me of being two-faced, or cowardly, or obsequious, but whatever. This is my honest opinion.

It seems to me that MagicDuel is in many ways a much better game than the one I joined two years ago. There are more creatures, a slicker combat engine, a wish shop that lets you buy spells and get into cool areas, and more things to interact with. Some people say, the wrong people get rewarded and there's no way to get ahead. I'm sorry, but I just disagree. I think MagicDuel is going through some growing pains, but I really do believe it will come out stronger and better than ever if we can all just [i]hang in there.[/i] Mur has shown every sign that he listens to the players, and I can't think of any other developer I've met on-line that can say the same to the extent Mur can. Is it fair? Not really. So what? It's fairer than it once was by an order of magnitude. Is there backbiting and gossip and bullying? Yes. But show me the community of human beings that lacks those things. The fact is that MagicDuel offers more opportunities to [u]players[/u] to impact the game than any other MMOG I've ever seen.

So what I want to say is this: thank you.

Mur, thank you for a great game. You're crazy and funny and imaginative. We don't have to agree on every little thing, but my life is better for having met you.

Loyal veterans, thank you for still playing. Yes, even you, dst. You are a huge part of the experience of this fantasy "world," and it would be the less without you. Stories gravitate around you, as does the sense of the game's "reality". Any loss from your ranks diminishes us, and while others will come, no human being can really "replace" another.

Regular players, thank you. Your interest and intelligence constantly hone the experience of MagicDuel. You are the life's blood of the game.

Newbies, thank you for your interest and enthusiasm. Stick around... things keep happening, and just when you think you've got it all figured out... something new comes along. Hang on. You're in for a ride.

This is not to say I think people have no valid complaints. I think a lot of people have valid complaints. But you know, you can dwell in the problem, or you can be a part of the solution. I encourage you all to be part of the solution. When a fellow player releases a quest, take notice. It was made for you. Be glad, and always keep in mind that the next quest might be written by [u]you[/u], because you have that freedom.

Freedom is only free as long as people fight to keep it. See you on the dueling mat.

First off, [size="7"][color="#ff0000"][b]
your complaining because people know more than you[/b][/color][/size] because [b][size="7"][color="#ff0000"]they've been here longer than you[/color][/size][/b].

Second, why are you trying to stay MP4? You should be [size="6"][b]TRYING[/b][/size] to get to mp5, and shouldn't be complaining about being capped.
Finally, why did you bug [size="6"][color="#0000ff"]King Numa[/color][/size] with this? He's a busy person, so [size="6"][b]stop complaining[/b][size="2"],[/size] [b]get over it[/b][/size] and ,[size="7"][b] life's tough[/b][/size], and [color="#ff0000"][b][size="7"]if you won't learn[/size][/b][/color] that [size="7"][color="#ff0000"][b]GO AWAY[/b][/color][/size], and stop bugging us.

So basically you have no idea what happened but you jump to conclusions and accuse us (the other players) of capping you. You have no evidences but you scream and yell on the forum.
IF indeed someone did this to you with no reason and you have no idea who did it what do you want? What do you want us to do?

And how did you reach the conclusion this is a bug? Do you know at least what a bug is?


LE: your totally unfriendly attitude gets you negative points so stop blaming everyone cause you'll solve nothing

[quote name='Kafuuka' date='19 July 2010 - 02:34 PM' timestamp='1279564465' post='64179']
How do you conclude that it is for quest purposes only? I'm not an expert on English grammar, but a comma can be used to list multiple possibilities which need not be inclusive as well. "can be used for quest purposes or mixed together or altered etc." versus "can be used for quest purposes, eg by being mixed together or being altered etc". In a further quote, Mur states personal use as another acceptable use, does he have to list all things allowed one by one?

It's funny how you go after single words, yet fail to provide quotes which are interpretable in only a single way.
[/quote]
Your interpretation of what has been stated completely disregards copyright law. If one is to believe you, Muratus del Mur is saying "you can do anything you want with my property" and there is absolutely no indication that he has given such freedom to use his artwork in such a way.

I based my conclusion on what was actually said, much like how laws are established. When something is unclear, when a law has different possible interpreations, courts get involved to determine what has actully been said. To keep oneself safe, and to keep Muratus del Mur's porperty under his control, a narrow interpretation of what has been stated is called for. Your interpreration allows anyone to use his property as they see fit. That makes no sense.

Furthermore, "personal use" never includes the reproduction and sale of another's artwork. How do you conclude that what was originally proposed--profit for a man who is using another's work--is somehow "personal use"?

Finally, would it be best if Muratus del Mur spelled out exactly how he wants his property used? Or would it be best for those who want to create MagicDuel-themed [i]anything[/i] to use [i]their own creative abilities[/i] instead of constantly appropriating someone else's property?