Kafuuka

[quote name='Metal Bunny' timestamp='1286122973' post='69572'] Ah right, wasn't thinking straight. Yes, with the AD it does indeed become sorite's paradox. But, unlike a heap, mur could superimpose an actual definition and worth of a wp, much like he did with the BP puzzle. AD's could then become worthy to a fraction of a wp, with added elements such as Dst's idea, of actually being there (I like that idea), much like the BP puzzle has several elements as well. So in that sense it isn't really like sorite's paradox, because we do have a higher authority that can define the worth of an AD and of a WP. [/quote] Except that said higher authority has asked us to debate about it and we are still bound to the paradox. afaik the only way out of Sorite's is fuzzy logic, but most people wouldn't like the consequences of that. (Personally I think they're hilarious when applied to this problem. Imagine every player having a (pseudo)random age requirement for their next 'free' WP.) Again, I don't understand your BP analogy. Multiple elements? The different starting tiles change nothing to the workings of the puzzle. The being there on one specific day is not a good implementation for goal a. An entire year of 'loyal activity' can be denied by one day of illness or other real life issues.

[quote name='Metal Bunny' timestamp='1286067214' post='69536'] Sorite's paradox? With what? In the measurement of the worth of the requirements of a wp? I give you, I admit, completely subjective, yet potentially objective measurement of requirement of one wp; the WP mechanism installed by Mur in the gazebo, with the patterns in the floor. [/quote] Quite simple: 1 AD is not worth of a WP. 499 AD is not worthy. In binary logic 499 + 1 = 500 AD is not worthy either. Any cut-off point is completely arbitrary. How exactly this translates into the BPG, I do not understand. BPG is ambiguous already. There probably are quite old players who have not solved it yet, while there also exist rumors of the solution being passed around. [quote name='Chewett' timestamp='1286100831' post='69550'] It would be intresting to see the stats catagorized into Gained no wishpoints Gained a couple of wishpoints Gained a lot of wishpoints [/quote] I have 8, I suppose that counts as 'a lot'. You should however also take into account that I spend my time on questing and quest creating. Any 'free' WPs are, imo, a mockery of both activities. In absolute terms, I would not loose much ranking under any but the most extreme frequencies, while I kinda 'need' one more WP for my current purposes. To maximize my gains, I should vote for a one time free WP, alts rewarded as well, preferably at a medium age requirement. In case of doubt, this is not what I am voting for. Granted, 'none' is more interesting for me than for people who don't design/solve quests. @dst: you should consider moving to Belgium, we're very good at making things more complicated without being more efficient. I remember the medal award and the voting and it was very chaotic. Every time someone got a Pyrrhic victory/loss in the vote count, previously awarded/unawarded players had to be reconsidered. There was little consensus on what active means etc etc. @apophys: that's been mentioned before (eg. on p5), without the emphasis on 666 though.

[quote name='Metal Bunny' timestamp='1285936122' post='69455'] Of course, I am only saying this because I am slightly more pessimistic towards wp inflation, especially when it's requirements are lowered enough that it doesn't really warrant an actual wp. [/quote] Sorites' paradox again... [quote name='adiomino' timestamp='1285980164' post='69486'] What use is a WP to a person that just logs in to gain active days anyways? (now if that "person" is an alt that is a different story..) [/quote] what use is logging in just to get active days? Unless you plan to return to actively playing on that account or alt abuse. In both cases WPs are interesting. [quote] but a WP to active days just seems like a nice idea. not much thinking has to been done about it besides how often the WP would be given out-if at all :PP. sorry if my opinion is too lax about it. [/quote] That's insulting. There's several things being discussed at the same time: yes/no, how many/frequent, what about alts, what about alt abuse, what are the consequences towards WP value, the pr impact on new players... Next time, read the entire topic. [quote name='Harion' timestamp='1285988266' post='69490'] it should be retroactive, otherwise, it'd be unfair to those who has stayed with MD the longest so because they had the unfortunate fate of getting into MD before this is implemented, they won't have this reward which, for all intents and purposes, is meant to reward loyalty? if that's the case, then that will just encourage more alts... [/quote] I'll try to understand your message first: 1. "It should be retroactive, otherwise it is unfair towards veterans who will not be able to get this reward." Unless they leave, they will get the rewards at the same time a person who starts playing the day of the implementation, gets them. eg. If the policy is adapted 01/01/2011, at 1wp/year, a 3y vet will be a 6y vet at 01/01/2014 and have 3 free WPs. A person who registers on 01/01/2011, will also have 3 free WPs in 2014. The only way for a 3y vet to have less free WPs is if they quite before 2014. A 3y vet who 'sleeps' between 01/01/2011 and 01/01/2014 will have no free WPs. This could easily be rectified by Mur, granted that we care about this problem at all. How often would it happen anyway? 2. "this reward which, for all intents and purposes, is meant to reward loyalty." No, not for all intents and purposes. Read the quote below carefully and see how the intents and purposes are not limited to loyalty, but are mixed with PR and other stuff (by lack of a better word.) [i]"placing a wp at the start of the time frame is important. A new player will not be impressed by the idea that he will get somehting after ONE YEAR of playing, ...they are not sure if they will stay one day at first. [...] I hope that in this way people will want more, and not consider wp as unreachable anyway. There are many that have none and stoped hoping for one."[/i] -Mur

[quote name='Metal Bunny' timestamp='1285853288' post='69400'] B and C are not necessarily an argument against A, as it depends upon implementation. [/quote] Reasons/purposes are not dependent on implementation and certainly not in a uniform way. CrazyMike gave an example how implementation is more proof if WP/day is not retroactive. The opposite is true: implementation depends on goals. [quote] You speak as if alt abuse would be the biggest and most severe problem, right at its implementation. But that doesn't have to be so, not if the implementation is done correctly. [/quote] Alt abuse and implementation are a problem regardless of reason. As such they are a slightly more interesting argument. I assume the worst for implementations, you assume the best. Obviously reality will be somewhere between those. No system is perfect. Finally, I'll restate this opinion: if retroactive WP/day have to be done, I think it will sell better towards new players if they also get something. Instead of new players wondering what the hell wishpoints are and being told they have to quest hard or wait 300+ days to find out, they'll get one quite soon. Veterans will win one more WP this way, but I doubt many of them will complain about such a suggestion. I like the suggestion of a new permanent WP dispensing puzzle too. Obviously the solution will be shared, but at least we'll have the opportunity to have fun trying it.

[quote name='CrazyMike' timestamp='1285777492' post='69358'] My example is only to show that the player has been active and voting, and that MD gains from the voting, justifying the active days. And as a veteran (though sometimes I feel like a noob with all the changes), I dont mind if the counter starts from zero for everyone if it gets implemented. [/quote] That would work well. I do hate the captchas when voting though

@MB: you do realize that reason b and c are also arguments against a? Even if a is [b]your[/b] intention, b and c indicate the side effects. Not only do veterans have an advantage when solving quests, doing creature battles, trading etc. they also had all the time of the world to attempt quests and now it's proposed they retroactively gain several WP(s) for free (possibly on alts to abuse too), while newbies have to wait a year? [b]If[/b] we're going to inflate WPs, especially if we're going to inflate WPs in an alt abuse promoting and veteran favoring way, there should be something for new players too. ie a WP for making it through the first month. *edit because you lot post faster than me* @CrazyMike: what about people who play the game by buying credits but are too lazy to vote? You could add the sum, but then people could buy WPs.

You're assuming that [b]if[/b] it gets implemented, it will be done retroactively. The question is 'what is the purpose of WP for days?' a. To reward people who have been loyal up until now. -> retroactive is good. b. To encourage all people to keep playing -> retroactive is questionable at best. c. To keep new players from disappearing -> retroactive is pure crap. To support this, I'll quote Mur himself: "A new player will not be impressed by the idea that he will get somehting after ONE YEAR of playing, ...they are not sure if they will stay one day at first." This also raised the question of how relevant the vote is. Few people register to the forum if they are not planning to keep playing for a long time. Due to a dispute about alt abuse - at least that is how I read it - the spent WP requirements for a bestiary increased to one. Will it increase each year to accommodate the proposed changes? [quote name='Jazira' timestamp='1285772985' post='69349'] As for the inflation of wishpoints, it could be a good thing since it will promote more WP quests and more people trying to complete them as there could be more possible WP winners. Just my own opinion, however. [/quote] Just how will giving free WP lead to more WP quests? Also, active days don't measure activity. Nothing can accurately measure activity anyway. Or loyalty. Loyalty bought with WPs is not loyalty.

Makes sense. However I don't feel like testing your quest further

I managed to get five cards easily. Last one is called 'the star' and it tells me to go to Golemus... for an mp3 quest I don't think directing people to GG is advisable, unless I read the directions wrong or there's a bug. I suppose people might get confused since you mix 'have' and 'found' sometimes.

In the spirit of putting pressure on 'people', I second this harping

[quote name='Mavac' timestamp='1285131418' post='68841'] Next quest. Player made i think. Fyrd something and his words. Got as far as actually finding his quests(wasnt to hard). Next part tho I dont get. Found the location for one but thats not really helpfull at all. Guess I need to hunt him down or something like that. [/quote] The 'problem' with player made quests is that currently they are all Wish Point quests. A WP is the largest reward a quest can offer (imo) and therefore those quests are usually designed to be very tough. The quickest remedy I can think of is adding a 'difficulty rating' tag to the quest list. That would not result in easier quests, but at least you'd be warned.

[quote name='Curiose' timestamp='1285016399' post='68752'] Newbies who get capped at mp3 without any kind of knowledge of how to play the game go on to mp4, and get theirselves stuck in stat damage because they don't know how to set up a decent ritual, or even how to use some of the basics, I am sure. [/quote] Stat damage at mp4, because they advance a day sooner? Most people I see advancing to mp4 are very very young and very excited about the advance. They're nowhere near having enough age to max an elemental yet. mp3 is the training ground most people try to skip as fast as possible and most vets will claim, if a noob asks, to be totally unimportant and 100% rectifiable on mp4/5. To the people I see posting PL entries like 'this player is a coward and knows only one ritual, that's not strategy.. he's always hiding blah blah blah': you sound like sore losers and don't get the definition of strategy. If it works, don't fix it. If you can't win, run/hide. Such is definitely strategy. People who post things like that on the other hand, either hope to look superior or to convince their target to change their ways. I'm certain it's ineffective. So who is failing at strategy now? To februari and anyone who wants to imitate him: you've made your point, your method worked. Doing it again is not original though, so find a new goal.

[s]3[/s] 2 angiens, all have 470+ age. No tokens. Bid in silver/gold only. *edit* sold one at 6 SC

[b]Fun nels[/b] [img]http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/1302/utob008funwithfunnels.png[/img] [i]It really would have been better if the title were fun nels instead of funnels. What's a nel?[/i] Here's the unmasked picture from Yoshi's trip, for those who gave up on gmasking it: [spoiler][img]http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/5269/yoshiun.jpg[/img][/spoiler]

It's not impossible to have both actually. eg. '5k + 10% max ve'. That's changing one line of code, unless MD is written in Turing or something equally low level. To double the coding effort, why not multiply the heath cost by the mp level of the benefactors?

"The seahorse is the person you want managing your finances or handling your legal matters." I don't think anyone wants me to handle their finances; too left wing for that. "How's my portfolio?" - "The rainbow forests are growing." "That means I'll get a lot of return this year?" - "No, it means the trees are healthy." "So when will I see my money?" - "Err, maybe if you cut down some of those trees, make them into paper and print dollar signs on them?"

Somewhere in the multiverse there might also exist an MD with player created quests, albeit a bit different. There's no reward for solving them in this universe, so you can post your solutions here, but do put spoiler tags around them! [b]The Lost Message of the Confused guy who fell into the Fountain and drowned.[/b] Your ounce sea -- late hears -- behind Lee. Hints: 1.Think metric. 2.Latin is not French. 3.List of french verbs: être, avoir, ecouter, se taire, faire, entendre... [i]What he really said was 'gurgle gurlge blub'[/i] [b]A waste of time[/b] [img]http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/1700/time.gif[/img] [b]Emo Topaz and the Razor of Doom[/b] [img]http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/377/topaz.jpg[/img] [i]He's sad because his hints are redundant[/i] [b]Yoshi's trip[/b] [img]http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/8956/yoshic.jpg[/img] Hint: yoshi

It's over... only one person managed to read the book of time, Totenkopf. As for the rest of you, here's an explanation of how it worked: 1. Anyone reading Ark's papers or the quest page should've been able to see that the pwd was 'the book of time'. 2. Being a question of time, the numbers in it changed every hour, on the hour. With a period of 20 hous, so that people checking back a few days later would see new numbers. 3. The [ and ] are always fixed. This should be a hint that all numbers in the same position always represent the same thing, a letter. In fact the numbers are generated by a modulated wave function f(x,t) = A(x) * sin ( omega * t + x / lambda ). This may seem very complicated, but what it means is simple. Each letter was converted into a number, with 'a' being '1'. Then for each hour of the twenty hour period, the number is multiplied by the sinus. To decode, if you realize it's a wave, is even simpler: for each position, wait for the number to be a natural number different from zero, this one will be the amplitude. 4. The second part was roughly the same, but in a two dimensional grid with diminishing amplitude to simulate entropy, ie f(t,x,r) = f(t,x)/r There you have it, hiding things in time. Next quest will be completely different and frankly I don't think anything like this one can be done again now that i've explained it. I hope you all enjoyed your headaches and are facepalming right now.

Removing logout is ridiculous and unbalancing. The people who were idling in the sanctuary would suddenly become vulnerable. They're probably the people who can afford losses the least. They're also the people who will be part of the largest group of easy prey. And then when they log in again and notice they got stat damage from drooling mp5s who finally got easy wins, they can't even log out anymore? It is also against any common sense about games. I choose when I play, when I am logged in/out or idle.

[quote name='Mya Celestia' timestamp='1284230379' post='68224'] 6. causing activity or change; capable of exerting influence [/quote] I prefer this one. Creating and solving quests is currently my main concern in MD and both cause activity. The creating should be obvious: I influence headaches onto other people - the solving only moderately influences people through the competition factor. I think I'm about as active as I should be, although others obviously spend way more time on the game. When talking about people being active in MD, it probably involves a qualitative judgement too. Blue texting all day might take more energy than creating one quest each season. Which is more active?

[quote name='Novato' timestamp='1284215431' post='68201'] 4) I agree that there isn't such thing as "fair for everbody", but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to be more close to it. [/quote] And how do you propose we try that? Fair is already a vague concept, so i'll replace it with nice. We also established that everybody is not possible, so let's replace that with 'as many people as possible'. So we have the aim of the new rules being as nice as possible for as many players as possible. How would things be nice for the most people currently playing? By stopping the angien bonus immediately. There are more people in support of this than of an extension. Period. How would it be nice for the most people, that might be playing in the next decade? By stopping this yesterday, so that the number of people who could have abused it, by the time they sign up, would be as low as possible. Here we have an interesting kind of paradox. Both ends of the spectrum - old players and players not yet enlisted - agree, yet the middle has opposite views. If this does not amuse you the slightest, then MD is just not for you. Also, read up on Sorites' paradox. It's fun; I'm using it against you, which is fun ... for me, sort off.

The irony... Sasha, do you remember the first days of the woodcutters'? Was it impossible to talk to Jazira in private, the three days she announced on the mood panel that she wanted to revive the Savelites? Or even after it was 'too late'? She seems to be very open to suggestions and imo kindness was her weakness in the past too. (Generally I consider it a very good quality, but in MD it can be bad.)

[quote name='DarkPriestess' timestamp='1284041682' post='68111'] Even if some log in just to get their active day counted, they still remain there, sleeping. [/quote] There's this button labeled 'log out' after which you cannot be attacked anymore... I know you haven't suggested to change that, but if you were to, I'd strongly oppose it. As Esmerelda pointed out, you're either counting on people's goodwill to stay attack-able or their ignorance of the new feature. I highly doubt this will "fix" mp5. [quote name='pamplemousse' timestamp='1284042186' post='68113'] I think it will balance out the Day of Tranquility a bit. [/quote] The days of Tranquility are supposed to become tied to the day/night cycle (for lack of better word). Regular days are its counterweight. Personally I think MD is already unbalanced enough towards creature battles. Inventing days of turmoil or whatever, is not balancing at all. There's neither a need nor a way to hide the purpose of this proposal behind fancy words; Peace had the decency to state it for what it is.

[quote name='Yoshi' timestamp='1284003673' post='68095'] I require someone with knowledge/experience/the ability to edit certain items. [/quote] Inventory items? I don't know if anyone that can, actually used that ability. You'd assume they'd be curious and test it though. I'm still lacking two WPs to get it myself.. unlikely I'll get them in time. I can help writing code; still better at c++ than MD script though.

[quote name='Tipu' timestamp='1283913931' post='68010'] ok just make it fair for every one: [/quote] There is no such thing as fair for everyone. How could your suggestion possibly be fair for the people who join MD tomorrow? To them, if they ever read the discussion, it will seem as though an exploit was explicitly extended for everyone except them. How about a person who ordered credits to get the free slots but is one day too late even with the proposed extension? The odds of such happening are slim, yet there will always be someone who feels left out. Looking at the global picture, any arbitrary cut off time for an exploit is equally 'fair for everyone'. With the exception of 'immediately upon discovery'.