where is the logic?

[Tom Pouce]

It seem that my use of planting in an inderect way a medicinal plant in a make beleive garden in MD was to be taken as being incitation to transgress law. So not allow

When i see that MD is condoning murder in an explicit and even with some game mechanic way
and to be specific i can give for exemple murder of NAD, murder of POE, murder of Fang, murder of chewett, murder of Fyrd, murder of Peace , murder of many others ....


i wonder if there is not 2 way of rulling different

Is not murder agains all countries laws, and so should not me allow in MD? because it can be concieder an incitation to trangress law?

Edited October 1, 2012 by Tom Pouce

[Rasiel]

Murder in MD is different then actual murder in real life, first MD is fantasy so no one actually dies (obviously ) Also death is not a ending in MD and quoting other players it is simply a new way to play the game.

MD is a roleplaying game! key word being game, theres many other games that you must killed someone or something, yes it is violent but its only a game.

[Tom Pouce]

Rasiel i agree that murder in MD is not an incitation to murder in real life ... if its that so planting a medicianal plant in MD should also not be an incitation to plant illegal plant in real life isnt it?

"MD is a roleplaying game! key word being game"

Edited October 1, 2012 by Tom Pouce

[Ackshan Bemunah]

This doesn't make sense. Nightshade is permitted?

EDIT: Tom, just plant some nightshade instead.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Ackshan Bemunah

[Mya Celestia]

[color=#008080][font=lucida sans unicode,lucida grande,sans-serif]Yeah, nightshade is the drug of choice in MD. Just ask MasterB! XD[/font][/color]

[Fyrd Argentus]

Not sure who stopped you, or with what justification. I'm guessing it has to do with trying to keep our PG rating, so that this website is not blacklisted by concerned parent organizations or countries who take it upon themselves to police moral standards. Mur wants to be sure we are available to everybody.

[Tom Pouce]

I am doing that pole to get vew of many as i think that Concil or the one reporting to me concil view to be wrong in assesment , if one concider the exemple i said of MD having murder that is violence and certainly not allolw in any country but permitted in MD and in MD forum to talk about.

I am all to have MD keep any PG rating

But everyone can read my thread of my garden (if its not yet purge)

and I find it being in a well standing and not requiring any purge

so please show me what PG rating its not reasonnable with

and if i read PG reating in a web search, i find its mostly concern with nudity , crude language and violence ...

[Pipstickz]

I could look around and find some players RPing a fight, or occasionally find some people swearing in chat or on the forum. Do they get threatened with possible IP ban because they're saying bad things or imagining bad behavior? Not to mention nightshade: MasterB's done RP using it for a long time while being LHO, and had around 8 items created back in the time of kings relating to it or its use, so if that's fine but replacing nightshade with an RL drug's name is not, then you're just making stuff up as far as I'm concerned.

As for MD being PG-rated, I would disagree if I were to look at certain avatars and personal pages, as some of those do contain nudity and swearing and such.

[Grido]

I think it got described as PG-13, as in you should get parental consent to play if you're below that sort of age.

As for growing nightshade, that would be against the background info on the plant I believe - where it says it only grows in certain areas, and then I think goes on to list those areas.

Who mentioned an IP ban..?

[Pipstickz]

In Tom's post in his garden log topic (which is no longer public), he did as part of a message he received. About nightshade, as I remember it, it says something like "grows only in certain places outside Necrovion" or perhaps Necrovion is not mentioned and I'm only thinking of it because of the connection to Shades, but either way it does not list the locations it is grown in, which would be irrelevant anyways, because the only "rule" you would be proving (retroactively) that MasterB broke would be RP reality, which is not something you would threaten to ban somebody over, is it?

[Grido]

My comment about growing nightshade was in response to Ackshan saying about how about he grow that.

Now when you say medicinal plants...? I have to figure that they're 'illegal' rather than like Chinese medicine?

[Kaya]

The game currently is rated PG-13. A problem is that according to the game age ratings I could find "the concept of the use of tobacco and drugs" requires a game to be rated 16. [url="http://www.pegi.info/en/index/id/33/"]http://www.pegi.info/en/index/id/33/[/url]

Basically this means that the moment one puts up a cigarette the age rating should go up to 16. As to murder in MD, I think it falls in the category "Videogames that show violence of a slightly more graphic nature towards fantasy character and/or non graphic violence towards human-looking characters or recognisable animals" which is PEGI 12.

Though the ESRB does mention the use of drugs on their site I seem to be unable to find an age requirement. On the other hand the ESRB does have a: [b]"Online Interactions Not Rated by the ESRB." [/b]qualification. [url="http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp"]http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp[/url]

Furthermore it should be noted that having a ESRB rating in Canada and the US or PEGI rating in Europe is not required: ESRB [url="http://www.esrb.org/ratings/faq.jsp#2"]http://www.esrb.org/ratings/faq.jsp#2[/url] PEGI: [url="http://www.pegi.info/en/index/id/26#question_6"]http://www.pegi.info/en/index/id/26#question_6[/url]

In other words if wanted Mur could rate it whatever he wants, there is no such thing as loosing a rating unless you actually applies for an official rating. (Although there are rules regarding 18+ content and payments, but these are beside the point.)

In my opinion you should be able to plant whatever plant you want as long as it's logically possible (no godmodding your plants) As for Nightshade, if I remember correctly it says Necrovion has a monopoly on it, so I would recommend not planting that, unless you want to risk angering the shades.

[Grido]

But since it is listed as PG12/13 at Mur's/Council's choice, surely that would mean that there shouldn't be "the concept of the use of tobacco and drugs", and by extension, should be added into the rules as such?

Whilst MD wouldn't lose any rating (presuming there's no official one), it's set to that age for a reason, no?

[Pipstickz]

Can somebody give an actual quote or evidence that the game is rated anything by Mur or the Council's choice? If not, then all this talk about ratings is strictly speculative.

[Kaya]

When registering:
[quote]We try to keep our game world clean, but this is not an adventure for the faint-hearted. Suitable for ages 13 and older. May contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humour, minimal blood, simulated gambling, and/or infrequent use of strong language. The content of this game is rated 13+ as some puzzles and contents are quite complex. MagicDuel is a Multiplayer game with live chat and we cannot control what other people will do or say, although we do enforce a no swearing and no adult content in public areas rule via our moderators as much as possible. [/quote]

One big problem is that these ratings are not aimed at RP games, but at the more mainstream games with 3D graphics etc. If in such a game drugs are used/someone smokes it's way more direct and emphasized than when it happens in an rp setting. Also these ratings do not take into account player interaction at all. (Though PEGI does have a limited side rating for that)

Furthermore these ratings are made to [b]always [/b]be on the save side and in my opinion nearly always are to strict.

[Tom Pouce]

Since we are now discusting rating and use of drugs

i wonder, is alcool concider a drug? its certainly a substance that is illegal in some muslim countries, and illegal to sell and consume by underage in most countries

in canada you need to be 18 years old to buy or drink alcool, and i think its 21 in US

But in MD there is beer, and tequilla that any player can use and get drunk (a most not model or moderate use of alcool)

Does it still meet the PG rating?


(bring that so one can see that if one go deep ,,, he can wonder where to draw a line)

And to precise to Grido question my RP did not include USE of drugs, only PLANTING a "Super Skunk Feminised" witch is an yes a kind of hybrid mainly sativa, but is use for medical purpose legaly in some countries, including USA (and that garden for RP was to plant medical plants isnt it?)

[Rumi]

Dual issue here is in game rules and forum rules. Do the log and onscreen chat need to meet different standards? I think Chewett could maybe clarify about what constitutes a violation of our terms and conditions.

[Ackshan Bemunah]

[quote name='Tom Pouce' timestamp='1349237673' post='122930']
1.
putting a post in forum saying that i would sell an illegal drug and giving instruction to place an order is doing something and illegal
2.
putting a post in a forum saying a story where one is selling or buying illgegal drug is legal
3.
putting a post in a forum saying that there exist a plant of a said name that produce an illegal drug is legal , its only an info, more so if one dont say that it does
[/quote]

My high school (it was public) made rules that would make 2 and especially 3 illegal.

Moreover, Tom, let me ask you -- Who makes the rules here? Is it the governments of the world? Is it the internet? Is it the players, in a direct or indirect democracy? Is it the ones who stumble upon power? I think you will find that it is not any of these.

If you choose to participate in this...communal...garden, you subject yourself to the community here, which is not the same as subjecting yourself to the population here. I suggest that you frame your arguments with the welfare of the community...but perhaps also the population...in mind.

What's going on here? Does it match with what the MD community seems to seek for its players?

Maybe PG-13 doesn't refer specifically to an age restriction as much as it refers to the way you direct your energies. The system will not retain those who focus on drugs or direct focus toward drugs.

Where did all the nightshade addicts go?

EDIT: Rather than post intrusively again, I'll just say here -- Tom is absolutely right that this doesn't belong here. I fell onto a tangent about what the rules of MD are really about.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Ackshan Bemunah

[Tom Pouce]

[b] [size=4]Ackshan [/size][/b]

The post you quote was an answer to a post of DST, where i was not set on drugs per see, but of the definition of legal, (and i take my definition of legal acording to law of a country, witch is the usual definition)

Now discution about community, concil rules , rating, or forum rules .... seem more in its place in the other thread with my pole

I respect the community of MD, did i not ask in making that pole to discust those subjects? , and wanted to ear opinions of others?

But on the same, also dont be surprise if i make know my views, is it not part of a sane discution ?

And i can assure you i dont focust of drugs, ask around since i begun to play MD, I focust mainly on what is right, what is making sense, and liberty of speach or choice
you can see that with all my 132 posts i made in MD. But it was the subject that brought that discution, so dont be surprise if i was talking about it.

[size=5][color=#FF0000]Forum mods: PLEASE: to make this garden thread clean move this post , flaronn post, and Ackshan post in the pole thread i made[/color]
[url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/13037-where-is-the-logic/"]http://magicduel.inv...e-is-the-logic/[/url][/size] (thanks for moving)

Edited October 3, 2012 by Tom Pouce

[Tom Pouce]

"Moreover, Tom, let me ask you -- Who makes the rules here? "

A more detail answer to you post [b] [size=4]Ackshan [/size][/b]

oviously its MUR game, and he delagate to the concil ... so who rule here you have it

About the communal garden, i am not sure who is leading that project or quest, but its probably Rumi

Now, i dont see the pertinence of those questions, as the answers are ovious

But if MUR, concil, communal garden leadership , are as responsable as i think they are, they should be open to ear opinions, and open to see discutions of some subjects.

Discutions cannot remove them of any authorities, but provide them with info so they may decide having see all conciderations. And opinions generate by MD players is certainly an input that they listen to.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Tom Pouce

[dst]

Let's forget about Mur, let's forget about Council for a moment. The only "authority" left is Rumi. What if he simply doesn't like what you planted? Let's say you plant mint. But Rumi hates mint and he asks you to remove it. Will you keep complaining? Don't forget: it's his project, he makes the rules, he takes the decisions.


My [b][u]personal opinion[/u][/b] is that you choose that "culture" because you wanted to create a bit of fuss. Well you managed. Congratz! Now, move on.

[Chewett]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1349210636' post='122881']
Can somebody give an actual quote or evidence that the game is rated anything by Mur or the Council's choice? If not, then all this talk about ratings is strictly speculative.
[/quote]

Actually a month or so when registering a new account i noticed a "Teen ESRB" logo on the new register page. Since i doubted that MD was properly rated by ESRB becuase it doesnt fall into A) a finished product that is offically "released" and B) "online interactions not rated blah blah" i mailed council and BFH regarding it. The logo was quickly removed and council confirmed that indeed MD was not rated by ERSB.

Checking now, this is the current text:

[quote] [font=Georgia,]We try to keep our game world clean, but this is not an adventure for the faint-hearted. Suitable for ages 13 and older. May contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humour, minimal blood, simulated gambling, and/or infrequent use of strong language. The content of this game is rated 13+ as some puzzles and contents are quite complex. MagicDuel is a Multiplayer game with live chat and we cannot control what other people will do or say, although we do enforce a no swearing and no adult content in public areas rule via our moderators as much as possible.[/font]

[/quote]

Link:[url="http://magicduel.com/new_begining.php"]http://magicduel.com/new_begining.php[/url]
You need to actually enter a playername, email and password before you offically fully sign up, and then it shows the above text. Just enter fake info if you dont believe its there, it wont properly register until you check the box on the page with the above text and press signup or something.

[quote name='Rumi' timestamp='1349236616' post='122928']
Dual issue here is in game rules and forum rules. Do the log and onscreen chat need to meet different standards? I think Chewett could maybe clarify about what constitutes a violation of our terms and conditions.
[/quote]

I cant speak on ingame rules, but what dst has previous said is correct, Anything on the forum needs to obey both the forum rules (which i was sure had references to some standard no drugs stuff) and the invisionzone ones, which again i believe have references to drug related items. if we break the invisionzone rules our service can be suspended and since invisionzone databases are near impossible to port (at least this version hasnt had the proper coding time spend on working on a port yet) then essentially we lose most of the content unless i do extensive work to port it myself which i dont have time for.

Not to mention PageRank has lots of things to lower sites with any drugs and such in

My comments on the forum are however completely different from ingame. I dont care what you have cyber sex ingame, but i do care if you start posting it on the forum.

[Ackshan Bemunah]

[quote name='dst' timestamp='1349248974' post='122945']
Let's forget about Mur, let's forget about Council for a moment. The only "authority" left is Rumi. What if he simply doesn't like what you planted? Let's say you plant mint. But Rumi hates mint and he asks you to remove it. Will you keep complaining? Don't forget: it's his project, he makes the rules, he takes the decisions.


My [b][u]personal opinion[/u][/b] is that you choose that "culture" because you wanted to create a bit of fuss. Well you managed. Congratz! Now, move on.
[/quote]

Plus one.

But alternatively, linger and learn.