Aethon incident

[Muratus del Mur]

This is weird, but i am opening a trial myself about a decision i am about to take also myself, against Aethon.

I feel i might be way to stressed and angry right now, and because aethon took the time to reply actively to all acuses i brought him, i felt its needed he gets a chance for a public opinion that might save him or punish him. I will try to keep it short. I need a vote to undestand how YOU all and each see this situation, also because its not the first time i am either to lenient or to harsh to abuses...so...here is your occasion  to be the jury.

 

FIRST

I work with Aethon on the crit combiner, i am happy about his overall progress with the resources documentation, we both put a lot of effort in doing that...so at some point i give him two powerful items to help him conduct his task better. I give him Death Patrol pass papers, offering him immunity from being killed in Necrovion, and Fruitjuice, offering him basically UNLIMITED action points. I tell him not to abuse those. what happens next will be divided in two, what he sias and what i say, both true

 

MY VERSION

i tell him not to abuse the ap item, but if he wants something he sees around he can make a list. My intention was to reward him things he wanted while being able to view all necrovions treasures. I told him clearly that the items are for doing his research project, for nothign else. Its kind of obvious anyway. INSTEAD, first thing he does is he goes the next day or so, and grabs the rare crits everybody wants in necrovion, and explores the secret tunnel that is publicly closed so it had absolutely no connection with his resource research. He appologised about it, blaming it on a missunderstanding or betterw aid on the fact that it reads from the chat that i meant something different. My argument is that its kind of damn obvious that if you get an admin tool of such power you dont make consuses or interpret words, you are supposed to kind of know by common sense what is abuse and what not....or...not?

 

HIS VERSION

He understands he can grab whatever he wants but keep a list of all that for later. He sais he was in the crits recruiting place before, on his own, anyway. Also, sais he didnt took the crits to sell them so its not about abuse. A fragment of chat between us is controversial, he presents it in his defence so i will post it here as well. He claims i said "excelent" to the last part about grabbing, i claim i said "excelent" to the row above with "doublecheck if uncertain" part. He blames it on the missunderstnading and appologised about it.

 

 

LOG

Quote

[26/04/16 05:44] Muratus del Mur:you will need free passage into necrovion, while you work on this

[26/04/16 05:44] Muratus del Mur:for this you will get two items

[26/04/16 05:45] Muratus del Mur:one will be usable for ewntire md, it will give you LOTs of ap

[26/04/16 05:45] Muratus del Mur:and the other one will be used to survive the death patrol

[26/04/16 05:45] Muratus del Mur:both are just during this project

[26/04/16 05:45] Aethon:Okie dokie

[26/04/16 05:46] Muratus del Mur:and with the mention that if you tap into the treasures of necrovion, you will do so just for research purposes, not for contraband.selling, not even personal collection.

[26/04/16 05:46] Muratus del Mur:but you can make a list of things you find and wish to keep, in the end if you do good i might leve you to keep them

[26/04/16 05:46] Aethon:Of course

[26/04/16 05:46] Muratus del Mur:just dont take big stocks

[26/04/16 05:46] Aethon:And thank you

[26/04/16 05:46] Muratus del Mur:like the crits hidden here

[26/04/16 05:46] Aethon:I shan't

[26/04/16 05:47] Muratus del Mur:please don't ruin this cooperation by stepping wrong

[26/04/16 05:47] Aethon:I won't, if I'm unsure I'll double check with you first.

[26/04/16 05:47] Aethon:Anything I grab, I'll keep a list of so you know at the end.

[26/04/16 05:47] Muratus del Mur:exactly

 

 

 

CONCLUSIONS

state your opinion and if he is punishable, and in what way if he is. Lets see if there is a general opinion. Is he punishable or not, WHAT punishment for this or what to do if anything.

This will create a precendent too. I am not makign this thread public because i dont know what i would do , but because i am concerned that what i will do will be unapprorpiate or unbalanced

 

 

THE VOTING WILL DECIDE - PLEASE VOTE AFTER JUDGING WELL. IF YOU COMMENT BUT DONT VOTE, YOUR COMMENT ITS USELESS

I will vote last, i don't wish to see the results while i read your comments, because except this particular incident, this "trial" will help me understand what to do on my own in future situations. WIll i give priority to the wording or to my intentions that might be confusing? You vote this case well and wise, IT IS NOT A POPULARITY CONTEST

 

Edited April 29, 2016 by Muratus del Mur
added the note about the vote being the decisive factor, Its the fairest way

[Aethon]

To make it clearer on my side:

When someone says " but you can make a list of things you find and wish to keep", that makes it sound as if once it is on the person. Otherwise it would be "but you can make a list of things you find and wish to have"

I was under the impression that so long as I didn't go overboard (take 20 shades or whatever), and kept a document stating what I had taken, I was able to "tap into the treasures of Necrovion". If I was not allowed to grab anything then it should have been clearly stated.

I grabbed a few creatures and kept them on myself, along with a document stating what I had taken. I never intended to sell them or give them away. They were, in my eyes, mine until my "work period" had finished.

As Mur stated, I said " [26/04/16 05:47] Aethon:Anything I grab, I'll keep a list of so you know at the end. " his exactly came delayed and thus I believed it to be related to this final post.

--

I have apologised and accepted my mistake here, though I believe this to have been a miscommunication and lack of clear and concise boundaries.

I believe this has been take way too far and dislike how it was dealt with so far.

But we will leave those details out.

[Ledah]

To be fair Mur you contradicted yourself in the chat. First you say not to take anything, only to tap in to Necrovion for research purposes, but then soon after say not to take big stocks, implying that, yes, Aethon can take what he wants, albeit presumably only a limited amount for himself. Then, when Aethon lays out his intentions (to grab what he wants and keep a list) you reply in the positive, whether or not that was to something else in the chat really should have been cleared up there and then, assuming it was. Assuming Aethon hasn't recruited 20 shades and spoiled the secrets of Necrovion, I would say he kept to the spirit of your agreement, at least from his point of view and any misunderstanding was innocent. So if anything, confiscate what he gained (creatures resources w/e) although I don't think that should happen.

[Ungod]

This is tricky. Legally speaking (lol), Aethon didn't do something wrong, as what you said was interpretable...I guess you can ask from a professional (in this case, one who has worked with you, Chewett) to know better and even punish the said pro, but in this case I don't think Aethon should be punished. 

However, if he visited closed areas of Necrovion that had no connection with the research, this is pretty much a wrong step, maybe not punishable, but a wrong step nonetheless. But the creatures and whatever he took weren't a given and as a sign that he went overboard, they could be taken away. 

Spoiler

This is a situation that happens  quite often. A legislator makes a poor law and everyone starts respecting the letter of the law, not the spirit of it. 

In this case, some words that can be misintepreted...were. With or without intention, one can only guess.

 

[Aeoshattr]

@Muratus del Mur - 2 suggestions (The important part of my post):

1. Has Aethon's alleged use of Necrovian treasures been quantified in any way? I think until this is done, you can't really say whether he exceeded a limit or did anything wrong. 
2. Apart from the creatures, are you convinced that his exploration of the closed tunnel has nothing to do with his research? I don't know what this is about.

If you are able to resolve those two, then I think you can give a verdict.

Also, here is my interpretation on the logs (in bold):

 

Spoiler

 

[26/04/16 05:46] Muratus del Mur:and with the mention that if you tap into the treasures of necrovion, you will do so just for research purposes, not for contraband.selling, not even personal collection.

(This means that he is not allowed to take anything for himself using the tools that he was given.)

 

[26/04/16 05:46] Muratus del Mur:but you can make a list of things you find and wish to keep, in the end if you do good i might leve you to keep them

[26/04/16 05:46] Aethon:Of course

(This means that he can look and say, at the end of the project, "Mur, I want this, that and these for myself")

 

[26/04/16 05:46] Muratus del Mur:just dont take big stocks

[26/04/16 05:46] Aethon:And thank you

[26/04/16 05:46] Muratus del Mur:like the crits hidden here

 

(This last part here I understand as "don't demand big stocks on your wishlist", but only taking into account the interpretation above. On its own, its meaning is different).

 

 

 

Overall, it might be partly a misunderstanding. But if you want to be as correct as possible, quantification is needed. On the plus side, to my knowledge he has upheld his responsibility of not helping with things other than information about the Molima creation. No resources given, no access given, etc. To my knowledge.

 

The only thing I find slightly dodgy here. HOWEVER I do not know the source of the creature and I cannot find it in logs. I don't think selling a creature he obtained as a result of testing is morally sound, but if he created it himself with own resources through trading/whatnot (which I haven't found in the logs either), then it's fine. I can't find the creature in the logs, again. So I cannot determine where it's from. This is not an accusation. Also, it's based on my opinion of it not being ok for something that was obtained just for testing to be sold like this.

He also offered a Molima as a bid here , but withdrew the bid almost immediately and decided to donate it to the TK instead (which I think is fine!).

[Sunfire]

40 minutes ago, Muratus del Mur said:

[26/04/16 05:46] Muratus del Mur:just dont take big stocks

[26/04/16 05:46] Aethon:And thank you

[26/04/16 05:46] Muratus del Mur:like the crits hidden here

from this one can interpret it like he can grab a small stock of creatures.

however if he only needed to do research, one of each creature would have suffised and surplus creatures could be taken away (if any), the fact aethon has been there on his own before cant break that since in this case they were recruited without risk of death given his passpapers

his role as i see is to document NC treasure to which the creatures can be seen, and not only the resources available

in this nature i dont see a punishment necessary but a need for more strick regulation, uncertainties in these matters can have grave consequences such as these

even if a punishment were indeed to be formed i dont see a year punishment or so as a just punishment, ill use the fang case as example where misuse of tk stock (thus abuse of official role) was only punished with 1 month jail

https://magicduel.com/page/Announcement/view/2456

[Aethon]

17 minutes ago, Ungod said:

However, if he visited closed areas of Necrovion that had no connection with the research, this is pretty much a wrong step, maybe not punishable, but a wrong step nonetheless. But the creatures and whatever he took weren't a given and as a sign that he went overboard, they could be taken away. 

 

I am documenting every area with resources so establish the ease of gathering, I'm going to every area I can to check resource levels. As you may know, Necro's resources were completely changed after it was closed.

7 minutes ago, Aeoshattr said:

The only thing I find slightly dodgy here. HOWEVER I do not know the source of the creature and I cannot find it in logs. I don't think selling a creature he obtained as a result of testing is morally sound, but if he created it himself with own resources through trading/whatnot (which I haven't found in the logs either), then it's fine. I can't find the creature in the logs, again. So I cannot determine where it's from. This is not an accusation. Also, it's based on my opinion of it not being ok for something that was obtained just for testing to be sold like this.

He also offered a Molima as a bid here , but withdrew the bid almost immediately and decided to donate it to the TK instead (which I think is fine!).

All Molimas are mine as announced here

As someone just pointed out to me, I was not given any chance to discuss this or give the creatures back before this happened. I was merely struck down with words.

[Muratus del Mur]

I need to repeat that his research did not involve creatures ...his research and the only reason i provided the tools , was about RESOURCES

only crewatures involced with his research where the crits built buy resources, the molima right now

[Muratus del Mur]

Quote

As someone just pointed out to me, I was not given any chance to discuss this or give the creatures back before this happened. I was merely struck down with words.

As i discussed with you while extensively explaining you my reasons , it is as if you get caught stealing in a shop, but then clain you didnt had time to pay for them but it was your intention to do so. You should have made me a list of things you wished, OR doublecheck as you said yourself, but DOUBLE CHECKING is not done much later, you CHECK BEFORE you do those things, in this case you should have double check before getting the crits not sometime at a later time.

[Ungod]

8 minutes ago, Aethon said:

I am documenting every area with resources so establish the ease of gathering, I'm going to every area I can to check resource levels. As you may know, Necro's resources were completely changed after it was closed.

well, Mur said that the tunnel was publicly closed...I don't know what that means, and what tunnel we are talking about (connection between NC and MB?)

[Muratus del Mur]

I will wait with the vote on this till to the end of this...because i dont want to see the voting before and be influenced, also i want my vote even if it will be one of many, to be well placed. I am open to change my mind for that single vote i will have here this time.

 

THE VOTING WILL DECIDE - PLEASE VOTE AFTER JUDGING WELL. IF YOU COMMENT BUT DONT VOTE, YOUR COMMENT ITS USELESS

 

[Aethon]

28 minutes ago, Ungod said:

well, Mur said that the tunnel was publicly closed...I don't know what that means, and what tunnel we are talking about (connection between NC and MB?)

Where did you even get "tunnel" info from..? I haven't been to a tunnel...

Didn't see Mur's part:

In regards to that; the tunnels I had already explored months ago using hundreds of pickles (ask around if you don't believe.)

The creatures were actually a (what I considered at the time) lucky thing to stumble across, I had no idea where they were or what they were. So, yes...I recruited them when I came across them because I assumed I could.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Aethon
Updated response

[Miq]

From the first two posts (i have not and will not read the rest), i say that Aethon was in freedom to take what i wants and needs as long as he keeps a list. 

 

As a personal side-note. Aethon sold me a Horseman  26/04/16 20:05. I knew he had a horseman from the auction but the sudden sale was, sudden. 

[Aethon]

25 minutes ago, Muratus del Mur said:

As i discussed with you while extensively explaining you my reasons , it is as if you get caught stealing in a shop, but then clain you didnt had time to pay for them but it was your intention to do so. You should have made me a list of things you wished, OR doublecheck as you said yourself, but DOUBLE CHECKING is not done much later, you CHECK BEFORE you do those things, in this case you should have double check before getting the crits not sometime at a later time.

The analogy is...not correct, but we've discussed that already.

As for the double check, we had already mentioned creatures therefore felt no need to inquire gain You said no big stacks, I took no big stacks.

2 minutes ago, Miq said:

From the first two posts (i have not and will not read the rest), i say that Aethon was in freedom to take what i wants and needs as long as he keeps a list. 

 

As a personal side-note. Aethon sold me a Horseman  26/04/16 20:05. I knew he had a horseman from the auction but the sudden sale was, sudden. 

Check the age. I specifically sold my paid for Horeseman -- yet more proof I wasn't in it for greed, as I didn't sell the one I had recruited...no?

[Mallos]

I voted to "Confiscate the goods aquired and do nothing more" I think it may have been a misunderstanding but as long as the tools are safe and nothings broken it's not too big of a deal.

[Miq]

10 minutes ago, Aethon said:

Check the age. I specifically sold my paid for Horeseman -- yet more proof I wasn't in it for greed, as I didn't sell the one I had recruited...no?

I have no plan to argue that it was not the one that you had from the auction.

[Aethon]

1 minute ago, Miq said:

I have no plan to argue that it was not the one that you had from the auction.

Nor was I, just wanted to put your mind at ease

[Junior]

I vote for confiscation of cries and anything which does not pertain to his role as well as any other profit he might of had from selling these goods. I vote in such way because

1, Aethon (since he is working on behind the scenes stuff A25etc) has been working with Mur for some time so anyone who has worked with Mur knows what he means, because at the end of the day Mur speaks logically he has common sense. Unfortunately he believes everyone shares this commonality yet some don't.

2, I have had these similar instances with Mur and while yes I too could have made the argument of miscommunication to gain more I don't because I know what he means because I know that english is not his forte. (no offense Mur) Which means his phrasing might be a little off so you should have DOUBLE CHECKED as you said you would and double checking is doing that well before you do the action. Its similar to shoot first ask questions second. (defeats the purpose)

3, if we all want to deduce this to a simple mistake and give Aethon the benefit of the doubt which I AGREE WITH, lets just correct the issue, which was he grabbed things he shouldn't have so they are returned and final.

4, Not sure if you're current role has "trust points" but if it does I would suggest taking one or two of these points up to Mur of course.

[Chewett]

As you said in your email where I thought this was the end of it:

Quote

ok, chew said no to the punishment, [other player name redacted] said no too 

It doesnt matter in the long run, we have code to write

[Assira the Black]

With all the changes, rushing to do more, collect information, and differences in language. Miscommunication will happen and the key is understanding this and try to be patient with one another. 

 

If you feel a boundary has been crossed, that you feel wronged, and that his actions has resulted in an unbalance... then the creatures/other things collected during the project, using those tools, should be confiscated. But since it seems like it is mainly a miscommunication, I do not think he should be punished. 

 

In works like this, it is important to give clear boundaries that all involved understand. And since someone can not know the intentions of someone, it is hard to treat every situation the same. Though when in doubt about something, questions should be asked. 

 

In this situation I do not think anyone on either side did wrong and that from here on out, there may be an ease in communication. 

 

For future situations with other groups, clear ideas, boundaries, limitations, expectations, and so on... will be beneficial if discussed in a bit more detail. 

 

[Muratus del Mur]

3 hours ago, Miq said:

As a personal side-note. Aethon sold me a Horseman  26/04/16 20:05. I knew he had a horseman from the auction but the sudden sale was, sudden. 

oh so it was about profit afterall Aethon?

 

Quote

Check the age. I specifically sold my paid for Horeseman -- yet more proof I wasn't in it for greed, as I didn't sell the one I had recruited...no?

whats this a joke? you get a horseman and sell the other one, whats the difference, you still keep one. Its interesting that i don't see profit in selling, but in keeping, but its interesting to see how you get entagled in your own "defence"

Edited April 30, 2016 by Muratus del Mur

[Muratus del Mur]

i can't wait to see what the outcome of the voting will be, out of pure curiosity.

As already discussed in private this affected our work together to some degree (depending on votes), but it woke me up to be more careful with what i assume people do based on what i say. Depending on much this affected our cooperation will back off or continue with the push on you and your role, i don't want a chain reaction. If it goes bad, i will leave some time before looking what else you are doing. If we continue the research at some point, the success of the research will be responsible of you deserving your role or not. I am making this note here, publicly, to make sure its mentioned somewhere but also so that you don't feel cornered

[Tom Pouce]

"NSTEAD, first thing he does is he goes the next day or so, and grabs the rare crits everybody wants in necrovion, and explores the secret tunnel that is publicly closed so it had absolutely no connection with his resource research"

He was specifically told to not take crits .. so its guilty on that count

26/04/16 05:46] Muratus del Mur:just dont take big stocks

[26/04/16 05:46] Aethon:And thank you

[26/04/16 05:46] Muratus del Mur:like the crits hidden here

But for his visit everywhere in necrovion i see no problems as you gave him an tool that enable it and did not specifically prohibit his visiting where he has gone.

i voted 1 week jail (and i suppose confiscation of what he took that yu did not want) as it is the lowest punishment to vote for, an punishment (light) is needed to have gone agains your specific say of not take crit. Chosen light punishment as giving benifice of doubth of his say that he intend to ask you to keep it or not at the end.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Tom Pouce

[Nimrodel]

1 hour ago, Muratus del Mur said:

oh so it was about profit afterall Aethon?

 

whats this a joke? you get a horseman and sell the other one, whats the difference, you still keep one. Its interesting that i don't see profit in selling, but in keeping, but its interesting to see how you get entagled in your own "defence"

Lol. This post shows so much bias. It's almost like you want to attribute everything he does to him trying to steal from necro.

Tell me Mur, usually you give people a benefit of doubt. Fang was given plenty even with his frequent episodes of verbal diarrhoea. Siegheart was given so many, even after he cheated and trolled people so many times. Liexer was given so much freedom despite all the abuse. Why do you seem so hell bent on proving that aethon guilty when clearly 80% of people seem to think that it was a misunderstanding? 

 

Did someone give you the impression that aethon was a lying cheating thief?

[Blackshade Rider]

I have had to many problems with Aethon. He is a lying cheating thief as well Nimrodel