How would you send messages in the past?

[Muratus del Mur]

Hello,

i present you a possible challenge. I has no expected answer, but if anyone presents a very interesting and plausible solution, i will reward it with wishpoint(s).

 

Imagine you reach a point in your life when you realize that you lived that portion of your life many times over and over again, reaching the same outcome every time, but each time you return to the beginning of that series of events (not the beginning of your entire life) getting a new chance to do something that will change the outcome.

You are not able to bring back any memories with you. You have only a narrow time interval when you start to realize the story repeated, but too late to change anything right then. A solution would be to DO something in such a way that it will change or send a message to your personal past.

What would you do? How would you change something so that you would do things different in your past, not remembering that you experience is repeating.

 

good luck

 

[Fang Archbane]

Let me start off by saying, that I do not aim for any rewards of any kind for my answer (assuming theyd apply) and would respectfully decline any attempt to go against these wishes. My reply is solely to explain a part of my life that's quite surprisingly exactly what you're talking about, and to hopefully help you find the answer you seek.

Throughout my entire life, I have had recurring nightmares and recurring dreams. It's happened so much, that I know have a somewhat detailed but foggy mental map of nearly all the places I visit when asleep, and over time have realized that all my recurring nightly adventures are actually a small part of a much, much, MUCH larger map, it's very own city in size, and infinite in possibilities.

When I first started to have these dreams and nightmares, they were quick to disappear from my immediate memory the second I woke up. Over time, I began to remember them for small amounts of time after waking. After years of this, I can now nearly fully recall it all, even weeks or months after I've had them.

I mention this only because in said dreams and nightmares, I always have choices, as we all do or seem to. After having each dream/nightmare countless times, I began to Lucid Dream (The state of knowing ones asleep) and hit what I would call a God Mode. I could alter surroundings, do as I pleased in every possible way, but the more I changed the looser my ties to the dream world became, and oddly enough it was all STUNNINGLY similar to the movie Inception (2010).

Because I subconsciously (instinctually) knew that I was both asleep and had "lived" this before, I had chances to alter my previous decisions without ACTUALLY having memories of said events. I knew going left meant death and restarting the infinite cycle somehow. I knew going right was unknown, but moving forward was better than "dying". And yet I had no specific memories, just gut instinct.

So my answer is simple. One has to succumb wholly to the recurring actions. Live through it countless times. Eventually, your body and subconscious, your raw instincts will guide you, even with a total lack of memories.

I'm sure there are other answers that apply, but this is mine and it has served me beyond what words can explain. I've lived a thousand lives. I've survived a thousand adventures. I've experienced my wildest dreams and fears, and all at the cost of nothing to my physical outer being.

My mental and inner self might have taken a hit here and there for the worst. It definitely wasnt all fun and games. I payed the price of being able to play God, but it gave me PERSPECTIVE like I've never experienced before.

I perpetually feel like I'm dreaming, even when I "know" I'm awake. Life now feels like a Lucid Dream, that's the price I payed for the knowledge I gained. It's both bound and freed me. I'm now a good person because I choose to be, knowing now that morals, ethics, and consequences exist only within our hearts.

To end this small rant I'll quote a famous philosopher and hope its to your liking. It once brought me back to "reality" when I was at my worst from the Lucid Experience and saved me from "Insanity" without making me lose the lessons. Enjoy.

"Once upon a time, I, Chuang Chou, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was Chou. Soon I awaked, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man. Between a man and a butterfly there is necessarily a distinction. The transition is called the transformation of material things."

Edited September 15, 2018 by Fang Archbane

[Muratus del Mur]

While i appreciate you sharing a personal story here, i am still confused on the answer....so you are saying basically "do nothing let things happen". I see no opinion on how one could influence or send a message to its own past..

[Fang Archbane]

Ah, worked an 8 hour overnight shift, maybe i missed making my point, my apologies.

Im basically saying that if you find yourself stuck in a recurring Time Loop (same event over and over again) and cant remember anything from the other times, if you experience it enough your instincts and subconscious will slowly but surely over time force you to "feel" certain things. If making one decision will have you killed, youll know it through instinct eventually, and feel fear. You still wont "remember" anything but youll simply "know" and make a different choice.

Due to that knowledge gained from having lived that Time Loop situation my entire life, i know deep down that the only "naturally" occuring way to get passed it and make new, better decisions, is to live through the Time Loop until your Instincts kick in and you are forced to keep moving forward. This might make zero sense to anyone who hasnt had recurring dreams & nightmares for 27 years but, to me it seems clear as day.

To me, this is the equivalent of sending a message to your "past" self. Now that i think about it more, it isnt really sending a message anywhere, but more like adapting to the situation and forcing evolution in the name of survival. My answer isnt necessarily do nothing. It's closer to "survive the madness ingrained through the experience, and trust your instincts, trust yourself".

Edited September 15, 2018 by Fang Archbane

[Aelis]

If you can't bring back any memories, I imagine you'd have to, while you are still aware of the problem, make some change to either (or both):

• Your environment/reality (so you could somehow prevent the course of actions that lead to that outcome). This would be an "external" solution.
• Yourself (I think this path would be harder since you'd have no way of remembering, so the change would have to happen on a subconscious level). This would be an "internal" solution.

These seem a bit vague, but I expressed them in this way because I believe the specific way of attempting both depends on the kind of thing you are experiencing over and over.

[Ungod]

Hi,

there are many problems for me with this challenge.

One is that this particular question has been presented before a number of times, in various forms, and the memory of possible answers (or even the presentation) makes it hard for me ignore them and ponder on it myself. "Kaoru Yumi" (The Scented Darkness) from a manga I like - Mushishi - is beautifully presenting this question.

Another is that I when I have to deal with the concept of "time", I feel despair. What is time, really?

Then, I thought of working with pen and paper, so I drew a timeline and a time 'knot'. Drawing time as a line is not really clever, just immediate. Then, I drew the time loop as a circle, only because it was easier. But this presentation is faulty, because it makes you think exiting the loop can be done through the tangent point of the circle to the line. In reality, each completed loop represents an interval (of a certain length) which adds up on the timeline, until the end of your lifespan/timeline. Because you draw time as a line, the loop may still be there, but you're still on the timeline, because being in a loop doesn't "stop" time. So if I want to try to come up with a graphical solution for it, time must be represented differently.I'll try to maybe come up with something tomorrow...

Apart from this, breaking a cycle you're not aware of, or vaguely aware of, comes with other questions - why are you in that cycle? Is it maybe a choice - to lose yourself into a pocket of forgetfulness, for self-preservation? Or a refusal of time, seen as an oppressor, and choosing the living of a perpetual present?

 

I suppose the thrilling part is the one of sending messages to a past self that would trigger the creation of an ever more aware version of yourself with every passing of the loop, ultimately giving you the means of escaping the loop - and this can be done infinitely safer than addressing some of the questions above. Forgive this wall of text, but some questions come with a huge load and I write/talk a lot (so most of the time I shut up, making it look like I don't think at all hehe).

[MaGoHi]

dude, do i have an anime suggestion for you:
Steins Gate

[Fang Archbane]

From Mallos:

nothing wakes me up quite like an alarm buzzer"bzzzz bzzzz bzzzz" kinda like a bee... I imagine a quick choice or nonchoice could be swayed simply by sending this most annoying noise to me through my ears to jolt me into action, as opposed to a nonaction I may otherwise take...

How to go back into time, I imagine (speculation ahead) that as information enters a black hole that it would be split into four constituents, three heading off into separate directions based on the magnetic dipole moments of the black hole and maybe the fourth point would be sent back towards the source, in essence an equal and opposite reaction. If the information is sent exactly back then it would cancel out, effectively having never entered the black hole to begin with and from an observers standpoint look as though it would never escape. That information being torn apart would be sent into equally difficult to reach areas of space (since as look further in space the space looks smaller, we require energy to transport ourselves to that area of space, and the gravitational energy tapped from the orbit of the black hole would be immense sending the information elsewhere) and would essentially be being sent into a completely different dimension, or probably more appropriately, a completely different universe.

Although that universe would be inaccessible to all or most sub-lightspeed travelers since the information would be propelled to near lightspeed or at lightspeed through reference to Einsteins mass = energy times speed of light squared (information or.. mass going into black hole transformed into energy shot out in opposing directions) they might be in direct communication with eachother through quantum entanglement and have little to no way to prove it without some precursor civilization to come and tell them that they were. That information going in would be subject to the black holes time dilation effects due to the immense, nearly infinite gravitational pull of the singularity and as such time would slow down for all incoming information to the point that any observer outside would require too much time to be able to observe the information leaving. An infinite observer might conclude that the information does in fact leave, after the entirety of the black hole dissipates through hawking radiation, after a timeframe so massive that most or all of the surrounding galaxies (universes for that matter) have already receded from view.

Simple point being that a quantum entangled spaceship able to withstand the journey through a black hole might end up inside a different universe or quite paradoxically in 3 separate universes, creating a sort of relay of entanglement that could then transfer information instantaneously back and forth between them, as such a spaceship making this journey over and over could find itself in any potential universe and could effectively find its way back in time to a universe that has replayed the exact conditions of which you want to replicate, instead arriving sooner and being able to change the outcome.

[Ledah]

Yeah all you need is a modified microwave, 40 inch CRT and supa hacka.

[MaGoHi]

1 minute ago, Ledah said:

Yeah all you need is a modified microwave, 40 inch CRT and supa hacka.

and a banana

[MRWander]

tattoo messages to yourself each time adding to it till you found a solution?

[Chewett]

5 hours ago, MRWander said:

tattoo messages to yourself each time adding to it till you found a solution?

See Doctor who Villains, the Silence.

You forget them as soon as you turn away, so characters to remind them they are surrounded would tally a mark on their skin to whenever they saw one. To start with you only saw them slowly go through the house with increasing numbers of tallies until it was explained what that meant, and when the characters themselves realised what it mean, they felt true fear as the silence were everywhere.

An interesting concept.

[Sushi]

I don’t think we can use tattoo etc… because I believe all the environment/reality, the body & memories will also back to the beginning stage of that event.

Well "I" can’t send the messages to myself, I don’t know how to record it and avoid losing it. But maybe I can drive myself into a fatal position and then come out alive!?

I will go insane and create a big disaster/event, the more involved people, the better chance in the result(the greater the unity, the greater the strength). because of the future consequences...…I hope the time travellers will come back to stop me/forward the messages and change my past(their past), create another parallel universe... haha I know this is a terrible idea but maybe it is another way to break the loop and send messages to the past? 

I mean, maybe I am in the loop that I can not inform myself directly, or maybe I am keep creating new timelines, reaching the similar outcome and too late to change anything. But other people are still continue living in their universes with infinite possibility, so with their help I will be able to pass the messages to another "me" from parallel universes and change the past eventually.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Sushi

[Bashaw Steel]

Nature of the time loop is such that regardless what we do to remind us would be good for nothing. Time does not rewind itself to the beginning of the loop
but rather resets, so any means of cheating the message would not be possible. If i plant a tree in my garden during that time interval in which i am aware 
of time loop, record whats happening, leave cryptic stuff or even kill myself, none of that would matter. Plant will not become a seed, record would not exist or any other 
stuff i left behind including my death. That is because behind itself does not exist. Time loop is not a line of time but rather a circle. If you guys like the night sky like me
you also like the stars. Thing about stars is that most of those we see are actually dead. What we see is actually a picture hundreds of thousands years old, if we teleport somehow
to their place in an instant, there is a good chance that they would be dead. Time does not travel faster than light but rather have the same speed and light of the stars we are able to see is actually and literary-past. So, to send a message to yourself one must send it in far space with speed of light and make it somehow come back. Breaking from the time loop by actually becoming part of some other time and coming back into the time interval we are aware of our time loop would break the "curse" and allow us to see whats really happening

As a side note, time loop is, by far, a greatest punishment one`s councessnes would have to endure. Being aware, even in an instant, that your existence is bound in time loop, even if your future self probable exist outside of it, is brutal:D 

[Aia del Mana]

If one should consider herself tethered to linear time, in a manner that mere mortals must, then one needst find a method upon which one must account of the following discourse, and even to contradict it:

Firstly, that all actions have cause, and that the action were a result of the cause. As one must think of events to have cause - so should those causes have causes also, unto the beginning of time itself and mayhap elsewhere;

Secondly, that all causes must be independent of the action that they do cause - that should be to say that an event of action cannot affect that which caused it; such an event that did so could prevent of its own occurrence. This is the paradox itself.


Of the above, I believe that it should take but a single premise to be untrue for one to be able to forewarn oneself in the past - thus, one of the following should be true - that which I shall label for reference:

I. That one may break free of the tether to linear time - so that time may be experienced in a non-linear manner;
II. that an action may affect of its own cause; or
III. That there may be an action without cause.

If the first is true, as with Nava and the Traveler - the solution should be trivial, as one may simply travel to the past to advise oneself of the time-loop; an alternate solution doth occur if one were to assume that the future should hold a method and purpose to do so, and one needst only leave a message and purpose for another to travel to the past to forewarn oneself.

if the second is true, one mightst perform of an action in future that should, in primary purpose, cause the realisation upon the time-loop to occur earlier; similarly, that one should trust oneself to repeat this upon the next time-loop. This should, in eventuality, bring one to realise the presence of the time-loop at its commencement;

if the third is true, one needs simply to bring about the end and beginning of the time-loop as soon as one should realise its presence (such as to bring about one's own death, or otherwise to be transported back without memory). Using this method, one merely awaits the presence of favourable actions without cause to occur within the time-loop. While this does not in itself change of the next time-loop, one should eventually stumble upon the desired time-loop, in which either the outcome were optimal, or a method were found to cause of one of the other premises to be untrue.

Much remains beyond the grasp of mine mere intellect, yet I believe this may serve as frame-work for future discourse.

 

Edited September 16, 2018 by Aia del Mana

[MaGoHi]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_Sent_(Doctor_Who)

this reminded me also of this episode of dr who

Edited September 16, 2018 by MaGoHi

[Jubaris]

@Muratus del Mur Could you be more precise about that narrow time interval? Do you become aware of the repetition at the end of one instance (making you powerless to react, so I guess not) or do you become aware that you entered a new instance? If the latter, is it just a more intensive deja vu, or you have memory of the previous instance during that narrow time interval?

Only the last option gives a chance for you to create a link with the knowledge, so I'm guessing you meant just that*. Then it all depends of the time frame and your creativity to use it, but the essence is to leave a message for you to read describing what will happen, and add some kind of confirmation (personal information) that will ensure your ignorant self will believe the contents of the message. Nothing complicated about that, somehow I don't think you're making a simple contest about the form of that message, so I'm asking for some clarifications.

_{*Other options require abilities we don't currently possess (or is impossible to do). I would highlight Bash's example of planting information far far away as semi-plausible which I really liked, but I think the time loop, upon reset, would reset/erase that action too.}

[Muratus del Mur]

So..everything resets at the end of the interval, but there is no set rule that things must happen exactly the same way, however they do due to lack of any new influences. There is no way to leave a message (tatoo, note, etc) because everything resets. Lets say the interval is of several weeks, and the "aware" period of about a day or a few hours (huge). The "aware" period is PART of that interval however, but during that short time you get to keep your thoughts and realize it was all repeating and will repeat again.

 

I've been thinking of this problem long time..  And for now my only idea is that whatever you could do in that short "aware" period in such way that it would need different roots in the past to happen (retrocausality), might change the past. Since changing the environement is not much of an option (unless you do something really different, god mode), the most probable canvas that you can alter is yourself.

So this is my answer to this riddle..or at least the point where i got stuck and decided to write this as a public question.

I'll keep reading yours, new or based on this answer, ...i am open to all suggestions.

 

[DARK DEMON]

Here are my thoughts on this. I'm just typing what I'm thinking. The answer is somewhere in here, and its not a 'here do this' kind of solution. Because it can't be that simple.
Its very long: get ready for a ride. But the read is worth it, I promise  
Here goes:
------------------------------------------------------

Ok so everything resets. Any physical amendment, any environmental changes, etc. This means there is no 'external' solution to this one. Anything affected by time as we know it can't be the solution. This led me to think of two things: the solution either lies in something that is 1) unaffected by time, or 2) it is affected by time, but unlike as as we perceive it. Let me explain what this means.

Time is not a real quantity. It is a concept. A concept is a mental structure in which we associate things with each other: a source and a target (take note). To alter the concept of time and memory, you have 2 potential options.

One is the source: the brain itself. There are various centers in the brain involved in memory formation, (specifically the hippocampus and associated structures --- read up on Papez circuit if you wish to go into details of this), which have a wonderful ability to 'trap' a piece of time and store it. This is called a memory. Sounds beautiful doesn't it?
If you alter the brain, you are changing time as we perceive it (as noted above). Hence this is a potential hole in the loop.

The other is the target: the sun/moon. This is what mankind uses to perceive time. I'm talking about solar/lunar calendars, the concept of a 'day', a 'month', a 'year'. These are all dependent on the movements of the sun and moon, eg: rising and setting of the sun, solar and lunar eclipses, full/half moon cycles, etc. If you alter the sun/moon somehow, you can send a message because these are unaffected by time. In fact they are targets mankind uses to create time. So technically controlling them will control time. Thus, this is the second potential hole in the loop.

Both of these are two extremes of the spectrum of a 'concept' called time. The source and the target.

So we have narrowed it down to this. Next we have to decide which path to take. Looking at the capability of a human being, resources available, and the time interval in which we can make changes after realizing (you say its a day, right?), the best choice seems to be the source. Altering the sun/moon in any way is beyond human capability and nothing can be done in a day

-------------------------------------------------

So we alter the brain. How? Well like I said, the solution can't be external. You can't just insert a device in the brain to alter memory formation. Then what?

I mentioned the hippocampus and Papez circuit earlier. There is a beautiful natural method of creating and storing memories in time. Now what you have to realize is that only humans have such an elaborate mental structure. No other species or form of life does. What does this mean? It means that just like we see life with less elaborate mental structures, there must definitely be potential to create or BECOME a more elaborate mental structure! One that possibly allows to alter the entire concept of memory formation and time in such a way that your 'past' self can 'recall' things... from the 'future'... which is currently your 'present'... ???? 

Yes sure call this absurd all you want. I'm sure if a goat told another goat, "hey you know maybe we can talk and write one day", the other goat would laugh. And that is because it is impossible to comprehend or imagine what the beautiful mind has the capability to do. That is what 'the true potential of our minds is untapped and locked' means after all. Once you unlock that capability, you can do things that previously you thought were 100% impossible.

So that is the answer. You have to unlock the capability to do so, in that one-day time interval. I cannot tell you how to do it because like I said, it is beyond comprehension and imagination. Our minds cannot perceive such a concept yet. But it can happen one day, from within.

[Sushi]

A timeline infographic based on my silly idea above????：

1) Experience the same period of time repeatedly.
2) Return to the beginning stage of the events without memories.
3) The “aware" periods, too late to change anything but keep sending the messages to other people in different universes.
4) Other people's timelines(parallel universes) with infinite possibility.
5) Time travellers from another future, bring back the messages before irreparable damage occurs.
6) Avoid making the same mistakes and start a new page.
(OR maybe after that you won't be able to know if you did the right change until the next time loop, so basically you are keep making the "right" choices. If everything is connected maybe its some kind of reincarnation...)

The reason I use parallel universes...I think maybe the time loop didn't completely reset or reverse, coz we still have the "aware" periods that we can actually remember the things we did or the thoughts between the loops, so it DID happen in the past and the action will have consequences.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Sushi

[Fang Archbane]

Going off of DDs suggestion, and it is an amazing suggestion in my eyes, two things come to mind.

The primary being simple enough. Undergo deep hypnotherapy to alter the way the brain works and speed up the heightened instincts process I mentioned earlier.

Secondarily, deep meditation could achieve the same goals. My only issue with these suggestions is that both would be external actions that "should" be counteracted upon the timeloops reset.

Any action we take in any way would be external and reset. We would somehow have to rip open the border between multiple dimensions and escape time as we know it (even with an external action) to create contact with anything outside our concept of time/space that would somehow reach back to us.

Astral projection does come to mind as I type this but... that action alone is difficult to begin and more so to master.

[Bashaw Steel]

The best part of MD is that you can go all out with your philosophical self and still be considered partially sane:D
And even if you are not, it only adds to the charm:)

Dark Demon and Sushi are especially heavy hitters, you guys made my day.
Time is, however, most insidious thing one can imagine. Just think about it. It can be described as a part of perception, or something that has numerical value,
a concept of our deeds and memories as unfailing proof of our past. All of that and much more can be taken into account and be considered as correct. I think 
it was Einstein who said that-if you cant explain something simply then you dont understand it well enough. Time is difficult to explain because time is a man made thing and not
a law of nature. Stuff happens, earth spins, people die and are born, its not because of passing of time but rather because of cause and consequence. Our reality is just shaped in a way where circular things have more sense and, our minds as demon said, perceive such happenings to be in time.
Time is only time because we named that split second in which we exist like that. We could named it sugar squirrel and have the same results. The greatest reason that puts 
time as such in this position is because it has no beginning. And time as we made it has to has one. Day begins with dawn. Night with dusk. Life with birth. Everything in time has a starting point except the time itself. Mur said how he had been thinking about his problem for a long time. Regardless of that, it is natural to assume that his thinking has a starting point. If there is a start there is also the end. But if there is no start then there is no end. So, even with memories, even with power to alter the reality itself, you will still have to deal with the beast that will repeat itself. And if you are alive in this world and caught in the loop, you will also repeat yourself. So, to leave message to past self is to actually send message to your future self. All things considered in the time loop, that is the only way to cheat the message without SF or spiritual elements:) 

[Nep]

I don't think you can send a message back to your past self, since as stated above, everything resets. But, I think there is still a way to escape the loop.

I've illustrated the timeline with a single line. It has a point where the reset happens, and a period of time before that when you are aware of the situation. 

Basically, in the short time you have left until the reset you will have to do something so outrageous/extraordinary that it makes it impossible for the loop to continue. 
What if you never reached the reset point, or to be more precise, "jumped over it"? 

In short, you will have to die. 

Let me explain. Shortly before the reset happens, you have to put yourself in the state of clinical death somehow. For example, you could hang yourself. But, you have to arrange it in a way that somebody who can give you CPR finds you shortly after and saves you. 

The point of this plan is that, at the point of time the reset happens, you no longer exist. Of course, your body is there, but it isn't your body that is going back, it's the "you" part that is currently dead. 

If done right, by the time you come back to life you have already passed the reset point so the loop won't happen. 

The main problem with this plan is that it's highly risky. You have to die as close to the reset point as possible, and have to be brought back to life as soon after the reset point as possible. This is because you have to minimize the time you are dead or you risk suffering brain damage, or you will actually stay dead because too much time has passed. You will also have to make sure somebody who can help actually finds you, or else, you will also stay dead. 

Of course, I'm saying this purely on a hypothetical level, I do not endorse suicide. 

[Fang Archbane]

You're saying a controlled state of death might ignore the time loop because reality is made up of consciousness and a psyche severed from a body might not follow universal law but multiversal law?..

Astounding, to say the least...

And risky is an understatement...

That's a Hail Mary if I've ever seen one.

[Nep]

23 hours ago, Fang Archbane said:

You're saying a controlled state of death might ignore the time loop because reality is made up of consciousness and a psyche severed from a body might not follow universal law but multiversal law?..

That's one way to put it... I'm not sure about multiversal law or the likes, I'm just saying that whatever makes you "you" won't be present at the time of the reset, theoretically making it impossible to happen. 

And of course, this is indeed very risky. But, maybe better than repeating the same sequence until eternity.