Firsanthalas

Ok, so problems are: Capital locations and accessibility. Number of and what players are taking torches. Necro will tend to only have MP5 players with torches (excepting alliance members). Loreroot should usually only have MP4 and above (I know there are MP3s, but lets face it, that number should be way smaller than the number of MP3s that are getting in) The current system means that you only score a point for taking a torch from an enemy and scoring in their capital. If the system worked more correctly (you could only take torches from your own land) this actually gives an advantage to lower population lands. I know this sounds strange, but consider it for a moment. Assuming that only people of a set land take torches from there and only points are scored based on that land having it's torches taken by force, that means that low population lands are very difficult to gain scores against. Lets give an example. Land A have a population of 10. Land B population is 2. Theoretically, if all people are carrying torches, Land B has an opportunity to score 10 points, while land A only 2. This doesn't make much sense in my opinion. A larger populated land making more effort actually seems to get penalised. A suggestion that I would make, would be to allow people to simply carry a torch from one land to another for 1 point. If they defeat an opposing torch player and reach the enemy capital, then it should be 2 or 3 points for each capture torch. If you don't have a system like this, then some lands will simply not participate. If you fix it so that only citizens of a land can take a torch from said land (which seems to be the right way to go about it, not just any random person), then if no citizens take torches, then no score can be made against them. Regardless, at the moment it is badly broken.

Given recent events and comments I am going to open the floor to you guys. Technically the floor is always open to ye, but it seems that you need a push sometimes So, what do you think the roles and responsibilities of a citizen of Loreroot are? I have my ideas, but I want to hear yours. Please treat it seriously.

You tell me, you are the one that never seems to want to work with people at all. The structure of the Savelites seemed rather simple. It was You. You didn't want to bring other people into any meetings or discussions. I practically had to force you into it. I asked you to designate a second in command after you said that you were stepping back. You refused point blank. You didn't seem to want to involve anyone else in any projects that concerned Loreroot as a whole. At the very least you seemed to want and expect all the work to be carried out by you and the Savelites and then just accepted by the rest of us. When we started planning and organising the festival that was held months ago, Mya approached you to try and engage you. It was supposed to be an all Loreroot affair, so I asked Mya to make sure you had some input. Mya agreed to speak to you on the basis that you and I seemed to be incapable of having any reasonable discussion. Your initial reaction was to call Mya a traitor. A word you seem to love throwing around I might add. The problem, Rhaegar is YOU! Most people find it extremely difficult to deal with you, if at all. Even after you have gone, you seem to be out to cause as much disruption as you can. You are not Loreroot, Rhaegar. You are not the Savels either. Your actions have and continue to damage Loreroot and the Savelite church. One more thing. You may hate me and you may continue to call me what you wish. But you really should not be taking things out on people that are supposed to be your friends. What has happened has put people that consider you a friend in an awkward and uncomfortable situation. You really should not be taking it out on them. Yet it seems that you are. Forcing people to choose between you and their loyalty to their alliance and/or land is not a noble act at all.

Actually, with respect Yrth, nobody even bothered to check if anyone else was cheating. It was simply decided that Loreroot did and that was the end of it. If people cheated in Loreroot, well that is fair enough. I said at the time that if it was cheating, then I would not condone it and I didn't want to see it again. But ONLY Loreroot was accused of it. As far as I could see, people reacted to a stupid statement and wanted blood. There didn't seem to actually much care about cheating at all really. If there was, it sure didn't seem to be in any way objective. I would also like to point out that after that, a certain person sat outside Ravenhold with both alts in the exact same location and the exact same time with Loreroot torches for people to take and score points against Loreroot. NOBODY seemed to have any issue with that at all (except the cheating Lorerootians perhaps ). Two wrongs do not make a right. I have since witnessed a particular tactic being employed by others that Loreroot was condemned for using. Again, seems to be an issue there don't you think? I also had a certain Golemnus person make a remark to me a while back about how Loreroot were still cheating in the TC because Loreroot won it twice in a row. Loreroot scored a whopping 3 points in one and something like 2 or 4 in the other. There are about two people in Loreroot that actually bother to run torches. Yet simply because Loreroot won the contest, we cheated. Seriously, it is beyond the stuff of stupidity. It is getting really old now. Also, it is in no way fair as numerous people have pointed out. MB is in a really awful position. They are pretty much the whipping boys and girls of TC. And that is one reason I have no interest in taking part in it.

The thing is UD, that the issue is not so much this item. Mur scripted the item and we have been told that it won't be possible for players to script such items. That being said, people have a way of finding alternative means to do things. They may be able to achieve pretty destructive results that were not intended. The question remains. If you have an item that allows you to do something, is the mere fact that you have the item all the reason needed for using it? You could extend this to spells or any other feature of game mechanics. Like the example that Pip gave of an MP3 using regen on people. That is a game mechanic therefore it is allowed. But at the very least it is an amazingly crappy thing to be doing on people and one that will surely drive people away. Is that what you want? Another example I can think of. You have been attacking someone heavily. They ask you to stop because they are about to or are suffering stat damage. You don't have to stop. You can tell them that you are not breaking any rule. But consider this. Instead of refraining from attacking them for a little while so that they can get back to a better level (at which point you could be attacking them again) you continue to pummel them. They get frustrated and leave. Ohh, one person left, big whoop! WRONG. You have now denied yourself an opponent to attack and everyone else in MD. So you are actually losing out yourself. Secondly, that person is highly unlikely to recommend MD to a friend are they? I don't know about you, but in my experience a lot of people get into a game or hobby on the recommendation of a friend. That is how I came to MD, it wasn't advertising (not that advertising doesn't help, but it isn't the only method of getting people to join). And people will also shy away from one on the basis of criticism from a friend.

Yeah, he isn't a Loreroot guy. Kind of really beyond fed up with such comments too. If you think that someone is good for the job it shouldn't really matter where the hell they are from should it? I wonder, if Loreroot were to be removed from MD, which land of people would you chose to berate then?

Mojito time!! Happy 21st birthday

Pip have you actually been reading this thread? Or did yo simply jump in with a nonsense remark? There are people arguing that the simple fact that the item is there means it can be used. No reason needed, no justification. It is an item that allows something to happen from a game mechanics point of view, therefore it is allowed. That being said. YOu have actually raised a point against such thinking and something that demonstrates that it is not simply allowed because it exists or can be done. Bravo, I am not sure how you managed that but you did. I will chalk that up as another score for Z and company.

Yeah, it is best if it isn't someone that is a person of title/notoriety or whatever you want to call it. I really wouldn't have felt in a position to hold the keys, even if Mur hadn't said anything. The notion of a king of a land holding some resposibility in another land seems wrong to me. I do think that Phan does have a point. Even if Tribunal was just a place that was chosen, it is there now nonetheless. My personal preference would be to see a 'neutral' party chosen. By that I mean someone from a land with no king. However, I would say that Miq is a good sort indeed and I have found Pazur to be quite altruistic. I think it may make a good recognition of Pazur's altruism. I can't say anything about Aysun, simply because I have not had much if any contact with them. So I'm not saying they shouldn't be chosen, merely that I am not in a place to make a comment either way.

Nope it isn't the same at all you dolt. Mya was targetted to what essentially amounted to a whim. Mya agreed to go along with the situation (if reluctantly) when it happened. You were jailed because you crossed the line. You actually crossed the line several times beforehand in my opinion, but I ran out of chalk to draw anymore lines for you to push I have to have a reason to jail someone, the use of an item it seems does not. So very different issues. I won't respond anymore in the interest of not letting this derail anymore. As dst said, you can make another topic.

Not the same thing at all Rhaegar. You know full well it isn't. The quest was not a Loreroot quest at all. The victim was a Lorerootian, but the quest was not organised by Lorerootians. You may count Tarq, but that is not really the case is it? The decision to have Pmaps and co held in Loreroot seemed sensible. If I felt otherwise, be sure that I would have hit the big red button. They are not the same things, don't try to paint them as such. It is a cheap and poor shot to try making. As for not liking it. I have put up with lots of things I didn't like. You for instance. (Correct msitakes and added a line)

Hmm.... OK. Lightsage. Pamps and co were sent to various spots in Loreroot. They went there by consent and they could not actually be kept there. We do not have a tunnel of war type of place. There are places that are not readily entered, but they can be left without aid. For them to remain there it relied on their controllers leaving them there. At some point Jester's controller got involved and said that he wanted Pamps to leave. There was no way to stop this from happening. I would also like to point out that as far as I can tell, most of the converstions surrounding this took place beyond MD. Perhaps there was a change of mind due to a conversation between Pamps and Jester. I do not know for sure. But it seems that Pamps resubmitted herself for punishment. At that point Mya said forget about it. Given that there was nothing to stop a repeat of the same thing happening again and her frustration, I see her point of view. As far as I am concerned, Firs should be able to demand justice for an attack on one of his citizens. My issue, is that, it seems that things are not actually being kept in MD and that events in MD were handled outside of MD. In short, I have no confidence that an in game action by Firs will be treated and handled accordingly. Then we will have an MD event, that is really being triggered by an out of MD thing. I don't want that, there has been enough of that. That is my fear. You may call me stupid if you wish, but that is how I feel about it and given past experiences I do feel that my concerns are valid. I also feel that I can't discuss the matter properly with Jester at this time. I really can't and won't say why on the forums as it would be very wrong for me to do so. L.E. I would also like to repeat that justice was supposed to have been served and built into the quest. There was no need for Firs to get involved with that at the time. That base seemed to have been covered by the people concerned.

I didn't stand on the sidelines for your information. I was away in case that escaped your attention. I was also quite ill at the time and I had to deal with some other garbage. But thanks for that little insight there. As for the prisoners being brought in. That was publicly declared as part of the goings on. It seemed reasonable to me. It seems that someone else didn't see it that way, but didn't notice or care until the time came. You are attempting to take one situation and twist it into something different. The issue was not at my end, it was elsewhere. I was not contacted when people were removed. I was not around, it happened during the wee hours for me. It is not as simple as you try to make out. There were threats leveled at people and they reacted as they did. Wrongly or rightly, in your opinion makes no difference. Add to that Mya. She was killed without her consent, she played along for the sake of it. She was never happy about it. Then there was a total cock up with the punishments. People were to be punished, then they weren't then they were. She got frustrated and fed up with it and said; you know what?, I couldn't be bothered anymore. I really can't blame her. I would also like to point out, that you yourself benefited because of Mya's good graces and other people like myself. So you should really cop yourself on now at this stage.

I will spell it out. There was an RP event. The organisers kept it secret. They were left to run it. While running a part of it, someone from outside interfered, partly because things were unknown or unclear. You yourself participated in events. While some people like myself were not happy with what happened, we let it go in the interest of other people's fun and not trying to completely mess up any effort that people did put into it. I may not agree with things and I may not have been happy, but I respected the people involved enough to not try to mess things up for them. I treated them like adults. I generally treat people like adults. I am starting to feel like making exceptions to that rule. Now, if I follow your logic, nobody should be allowed to do anything at all without asking me or the others kings first. Furthermore, it isn't finished with. There is now a debate concerning points surrounding the events. There is also childishness it seems too.

I knew the captives had been taken. It was what happen afterward, while I wasn't around. Oh, wait, that is right. I should have known because I should have been able to tell using my psychic powers. I also don't know what you had for breakfast this morning. Is that also an issue? L.E. You know what? It is also your fault too. Why? Well you didn't know Mya was going to be killed did you? You really should have known about it. I definately think that you should have known about it somehow.

Wow that makes sense doesn't it? The whole thing was deliberately kept from people, including me and it is my fault? What am I, psychic? You can blame a ship captain for hitting a big visible iceberg. You can't blame them for being hit by a torpedo.

I didn't let anyone go, I didn't know anything about it. As I already said, there seemed to be total confusion as the what was actually going on. I heard that they were being locked up and it all seemed to be fine and dandy, next thing they were let out. As I said, messy, very messy. Anyway, there will be more to follow, you can rest assured.

You would be correct Lightsage. The difference, is that the contrary has actually happened in MD. We have actually seen a war sparked off by an argument between two people (I'm not saying it was the sole cause, but it was the catalyst to say the least). In the real world no land would create a stink over an obvious criminal getting their just rewards. If they did, they would meet with opposition from other countries. Maybe not by force, but there are other means to show your views. These don't exist in MD. The court in MD seems to be more for real issues, not RP ones. What happens to lands with no kings? There is no means to confine any person available to the kings either. Except for requesting that someone be sent to jail. There are also rules and regulations, like the Geneva convention and bodies such as the U.N. I'm not afraid to pursue a course of action for RP purposes, when it is clearly the correct course of action to take. The issue, is whether the reaction will be appropriately handled. For the record, I don't think Jester would over-react and blow things into a giant mess. But it has happened in the past and may well happen again. I felt it was worth bringing this to light at this time. There has obviously already been some confusion when crime and punishment arose in this instance. One other point. Say that I wanted to hire someone to kill the killer. How would I hire Ivorak to kill himself? Tongue in cheek, but I think a fair point nonetheless.

[quote]This item was created and given out to someone deemed responsible enough to use it. To argue that in the future, incredibly powerful items will be given out to anyone to use without repercussion or consideration of abuse is just sort of silly.[/quote] Pamps, the point is that some people seem to think that simply because it is there it is open for use regardless of other considerations. This is the real issue. You may feel that you or Ivorak won't abuse it, but I am not so sure about others. I have heard many arguments about it being usable simply because it is there. The same people didn't seem to have any regard for the consequences. You said yourself that there should be consequences and you said that you are willing to face consequences. But not everyone else is. There are people that would simply use an item because they felt like it and expect to simply get away using it on the basis that there is no hard and fast rule in place that governs its use. The item exists and it is possible that it could end up in somebody elses hands. As for items that I suggested, that was meant to be an extreme example, but if somebody said to you a year ago or more that there would be an item to make people dead, would you have not thought that was silly? Regardless, the item is there and it seems that there are no consequences for using it. That, surely has to be a cause for concern? As for not telling people. There seemed to be some confusion to say the least, surrounding your punishment. Perhaps had you spoken to Jester about it beforehand, that could have been avoided. Right now it all seems to have ended rather messily and there seems to be still an air of confusion about what exactly is going on. Whatever about not telling me or others involved, I find it really odd that you didn't bother to consult your own king on the matter, especially if you were expecting 3 or 4 Necrovions to essentially end up in jail over it. As the king of Loreroot, I could demand retribution for your actions against one of my citizens. However, I felt that given the confusion and lack of clarity any such action on my part would have created a backlash and not actually had the desired effect. You may be willing to take it on the chin in good faith, but there are other people involved, like your king, who may have other ideas.

I agree with you wholeheartedly dst. It just felt that there was a bit of a jibe in there at Mya. And that felt wrong to me under the circumstances. I would like to point out that it was her decision to 'cure' herself via the torches. And that at least, showed her unwillingness to simply remain in a condition imposed upon her. It might not seem like a lot, but I feel it is an important point to note. She may not have come out and made a big noise publicly, but it is unfair to say that she simply smiled and did as she was told. She did let the quest run and as you said, if she hadn't it would have been ruined. But she altered the terms slightly to suit her more, by getting herself restored to life. A subtle and maybe passive response perhaps, but anything more would most likely have destroyed the quest. As for the end of the quest, it appears that was affected by the actions of others. Perhaps something should also be said of that? @ Udgard. It isn't the same as a spell though is it? A spell has a limited duration. Turning someone into a frog lasts a relatively short time. The other person also has a chance to exact revenge of some sort. How does one restore the balance when there is one item that makes you dead? And dead is a permanent thing unless there is another item to restore you, or you can use another game mechanic to restore you. Consider this. You pay credits toward the game. With those credits you purchase a shop creature. Now someone has an item that lets them steal that creature, or kill it permanently. Still no problem with the item being used on you, simply because it can be?

I think that is more than a little disingenuous to Mya, dst. I do think that her good nature was taken advantage of. But there is also that fact that had she complained, there didn't seem to be any obvious mechanism for her condition to be reveresed and she would have more than likely have been labeled a spoil sport by some. It is a poor situation to find yourself in. While you yourself may not have cared, she would. I don't think that is a character flaw, just a different type of personality and it is as you said why she was picked upon. I would also like to say that Mya does not simply do as she is told. I really think that is an insulting remark to make and not called for at all. Couple this with the fact that certain people seem to think that the action against her was completely acceptable, her complaining would not necessarily made any difference to her situation at the time. It would more than likely have simply resulted in a forum flaming war, while she continued to be dead for some time. She opted to play along and get revived at the earliest opportunity. I think that was a nice thing of her to do and possibly not something I'd have done (I probably would have gone down the screaming blue murder avenue). She shouldn't be berated for being nice. If that is what the world is coming to, we have a serious problem.

Fair enough, but unlike pen and pencil RPCs (and even some online ones) there are other factors at play here. In other RPGs items are merely something on a piece of paper and you don't have real money involved (I know there is sometimes, but you get the idea. People can spend lots of money on tokens and creatures in MD). There needs to be consideration that while something is possible, it does not make it right.

With respect Tarq, killing characters permanently would seem like a good way to also kill MD permanently. I can't see people taking too kindly to having their character killed and losing all the creatures and features that they paid for go in the bin. I know I would be looking for a refund if that were the case. I also think, that given that some people pay to support the game, while others don't this in particular would get real nasty, real quick.

I would also like to add something to the mix. Aside from the question of killing Mya, there is another factor. Namely that she was thrown into the middle of a quest. Now, nobody would just assume that someone is willing to participate in a quest without first asking them. Yet, it seems that some people think that if you kill someone that it is suddenly acceptable? I don't want this to come across as simply bashing Tarq or anyone else. I think that there is usually too much negativity surrounding people trying to do something creative. But, mistakes are made, they should be pointed out and learned from. So, I think that in future, people should be asked first. The quest was an interesting thing and it definately brought some activity. As for killing people and justifying it. This is supposed to be a game. Killing a character has a very real affect on a person. Not just the character, but the person behind it. You could argue that it is tantamount to a jail sentence, as the person is left not being able to do much, if anything at all with their character for a significant period of time. And you cannot simply toss people in jail simply because you have an item and feel like it can you? And even then, the person has a chance to object to their jailing. You can't object to someone simply making you dead via an item. One other thing. Items are supposed to be used for RP purposes and to facilitate game mechanics. I really don't think that an item that kills people is simply a tool of game mechanics. It is very definately meant for RP. Killing someone and saying you used an item and declaring that as legitimate for that reason alone seems more like godmodding to me, but with the advantage of having an item to back up your action. Maybe it is an over-reaction, but I fear that this may start a trend that could get quite ugly in the future, especially if other items are releases that can result in very real changes of state to a character.

Chain of command The chain of command in Loreroot is simple. Each alliance is responsible for their own inner workings. Each alliance member can speak to their leaders and have them raise any concerns or ideas on their behalf at the next meeting of leaders. Alternatively they may speak directly to the king. Due to issues with timezones, real life and other things the leaders don’t have set dates and times to meet. If something pressing happens they will try to meet up and discuss things as quickly as possible. However, they may need to discuss things with each other, but not at a single time and place with all in attendance. The leaders of the alliances in Loreroot constitute the court mentioned before the kingship was established. Alliance groups can also seek to invite individuals to speak at a meeting if they feel the need is there. A note on plans for guilds/groups/sects/titles/institutions/symbols/flags/crests or whatever else you wish to call it. Anything like that should go through the court of Loreroot. At the very least, it should be brought up with the king, or your alliance leader, with emphasis that it hasn’t been discussed further (i.e. with the king). Now this may seem draconian or an attempt to control or just stifle creativity. In a way it is. But, not for unfair reasons. There are currently about 70 citizens of Loreroot. Having everyone come up with their own ideas and let them off to pursue them without checking will eventually result in issues. Recall the expression that, the road to hell is paved with good intentions? Some of the very issues that Loreroot faced in the past started because of people having what they considered to be a great idea and making plans etc. Add to that other factors, like the low numbers of people around and the probable over abundance of alliances and other groups for that number and you see, that while you may have a great idea for a group, you need to consider other implications. Are there enough people to support or warrant this? Will it have an effect on an already existing or planned group? Does this create a conflict with something or someone else? Furthermore, it makes more sense for requests to come from one source to Mur. Citizenship Once you join a Loreroot alliance, you become a citizen. There is no getting around this. You may not fill out any request for citizenship, but you become one nonetheless. Membership of an alliance in Loreroot is a declaration in itself that you are a citizen and accept the implications thereof. Now, the king could insist that nobody be allowed to join an alliance until they have first applied for and been accepted as a citizen. Perhaps this will become the case. But on a personal level, I felt that this was just adding a layer of bureaucracy and potentially making the alliance leaders feel a loss of autonomy with regards to membership. One other thing, if you send a citizen request and I accept, it will boot you from your alliance. Therefore I reject requests from people I recognise as alliance members. If you have left your alliance for training or something, please state this on the application so I know I won’t be kicking you from your alliance. Also, there could be a day or two between the times you send an application and I review it. So if you are just leaving for a day or a few hours, don’t send me a request please (or at least contact me directly and let me know). Also, if you have a request pending and you have rejoined your alliance, let me know please. Please don’t send me requests with no reason given either. Disagreeing with the king You are entitled to disagree with the king. However, there are certain things that can’t and won’t be tolerated. Disrespecting the king is unacceptable. You can disagree, but you should be courteous about it. Likewise, the same respect should be shown to the alliance leaders within Loreroot. Again, you can raise issues via the chain of command or go directly to the top, so to speak. Public displays of disrespect are really not acceptable. Disagree yes, disrespect, no. Now, you may say that I am saying this for myself personally. I am not. The position of king is an office. I won’t always hold it. The rules apply to the position, not to me as such. If you really feel the need to insult me personally, do it in a private manner as a private individual. And again, the same applies to all leaders in Loreroot. Alliance leaders and takeovers Alliances in Loreroot are not playthings for the idle. The leader of an alliance should be determined internally, by whatever means the alliance in question uses for such matters. If an alliance feels that someone has subverted the usual mechanisms for this, they may petition the king to remove an unfairly placed leader. Likewise, if a person from beyond an alliance tries to takeover, they may be removed by the king and punished for breaking the law of the land. The king also holds the right to remove a leader from office if they are in breach of the law or jeopardising their alliance or Loreroot . It goes without saying though, that such activities could be a sure fire way for a king to find themselves at the end of an angry mob. If you feel that this ability is being abused or used unjustly, then it is actually your duty to say something about it. Again, there is a chain of command, so multiple options are available to you. Remember, you can speak to me. I may take a while to get back to you, but I am not in the habit of simply ignoring people. If you feel intimidated or worried about appearing foolish for some reason, go to your leader and have them raise the issue for you. If you feel that you are not getting feedback after a period of time, please make sure to say something to me at that point. It could be that I have not been informed, so don’t assume that I didn’t bother please.