The naked truth.

[Firsanthalas]

I decided I have enough and I am going to say exactly what I think.

In some ways this should be private between Mur and myself. But in other ways, no it deserves to be public.
Mur says he allows free speech and this is the view of ONE person in MD. Anyone is free to agree or disagree with me, so by making this public I am opening myself up to as much insult, injury or plain old abuse as Mur is getting from me because of what I have written (or not). I will apologise for hurt I may cause, but I will not apologise for my view on things.

Over time I have brought things up I have been unhappy with. I have written lengthy threads/emails about things. Undoubtedly some of it has been seen as stupid, wrong, preaching, longwinded, call it what you will. I am sure that at times I have not been as right as I felt. But I have always said what I believed to be true.
Your response to this has usually taken the form of a very personal attack. You have called me a coward, stupid, naïve, lazy among other things. And yes you have actually put it quite plainly as ‘you are a coward’ ‘you are incompetent’ etc etc. And I mean plainly to me, not even when you go off calling the kings in general inept or what have you.

You say I whine. You seem to think that all I do is whine. Well, you should look in the mirror bud. On more than one occasion you have had a good old whine about how you are fed up dealing with ‘stuff’ (I want to use a different S word here, but I will refrain even though I believe it is appropriate) and that you setup the kings and the council etc to deal with it. That you shouldn’t have to respond to things.

Newsflash! YOU set them up. You setup the council and you complain it isn’t working or doing its job. Well, YOU appointed the council. YOU also set the council up to make decisions, to be autonomous. Yet on at least one occasion YOU personally stepped in and over-ruled the council. So YOU undermined the council. If you feel that the council is not working then YOU can change the people on it, the format of it or YOU can remove it.
(By the way, I could tell you why they don’t work, I have tried to point out an error with at least one, but you simply ignore it as whining. But suffice it to say that simply changing the people will not actually change much if anything at all)

In one of my last outbursts to the council YOU responded personally. And yes, your answer was VERY personal. You even went to far as to point out that you were being gracious enough to not punish me for my use of bad language. For anyone that is interested, my language was most foul, it was intended to be to stress my annoyance. It seems that this is what saved me from punishment. Now, the thing is, this was a letter sent to the council, not broadcast on the forum. As such, I view this as private. So, YOU may feel it was improper or foul or anything you like. But quite frankly it was private, not public.
On the other hand, YOU dragged this matter onto the forums. While not obvious to anyone not privy to the private matter, YOU did this nonetheless. And your reason for doing this was for YOUR satisfaction. To be fair, when I complained you did remove it. However, I am sure that was just another example of whiny Firs and you felt you better do it rather than listen to me whine about it some more (I am being sarcastic, I would like to believe that you removed it due to sincerity, but you never apologised, so I will never really know perhaps).
When people use certain words on the forums they have been told to change them or had them changed and even warned and told off for their language or banned etc. And we are talking about words that do not begin with F here and words that many would view as no issue at all I might add. Yet YOU have used the F word on the forums and I have not seen or heard of anything being said to you. It seems that there is a rule for everyone else and a different rule for YOU.

YOU want people like me to use the needles to see Eon bring a case for being bullied. YOU want other people to do this. Why should I or anyone else doing something that YOU are not willing to do?
And WHY are we seemingly ignoring any issue with anyone else being bullied because YOU want people to gang up on Eon and have Eon bring a case first?
YOU can call me stupid or lazy or a coward or anything YOU want. But, I WILL NOT do something that YOU will not do yourself.
It starts from the top. YOU cannot expect people to do things you are unwilling to do YOURSELF.
Either a rule about bad language on the forums applies to everyone or it does not apply at all. YOU are not and cannot be the exception to the rule. Owners/Moderators of a forum cannot police rules they themselves do not respect. It is hypocritical and makes the rules itself void.

You talk about respect. Well, I may have said things you didn’t like. I may have said things that were wrong. BUT, I have never disrespected you by calling you names or attacking your character. You may feel that I have and you may feel that I am doing so now. But I have never treated you with contempt and I have never ridiculed you for my own amusement. I have also had the decency to apologise to you when I have gone too far or at least felt I had. NEVER, NOT ONCE HAVE YOU APOLOGISED TO ME.
I don’t need an apology to feel better about myself by the way. I don’t need you to tell me I am not a coward or stupid or anything else. I know exactly what I am. I know my faults and failings and I know when someone is talking through their rear end in what they are calling me.

And for the record. There is no brainwashing going on in Loreroot that I am aware of. There may have been in the past and I was one of the people that brought it to your attention. Yet it seems that whenever you get a bit annoyed with me you role that one out. If it ain’t you that does it, somebody else does and you are happy to let it out there.
I have not asked anyone to leave MD or to hate you or anyone else. I have not tried to create some kind of mini group within MD with some strange and pointless aim of ruining MD. People in Loreroot do not have some kind of organised hate MUR, or dst or anyone else campaign going despite what some people like to think or even insinuate on the forums. I actually find the notion mildly amusing and completely at odds with the fact that you think I just do nothing but whine.

You can content yourself that the only people that agree with me are the whiners in Loreroot. What saddens me is that you don’t take a step back and realise that like it or no, that is a percentage of the population in MD. That it is so easy to simply write all those people off as some kind of whiner fruitcakes. We are all from different countries, different religions, ethnic groups, coulours, capabilities, attitudes, experiences, age, sex, you name it. But it all boils down to Loreroot = whiners.
That is not an indictment of the people in Loreroot, that is an indictment of YOU. You allow this mentality to foster and it seems that you share it yourself. In fact, I would argue that it is because YOU hold this view that others share it.
Like it or not, MD is your creation and YOU have a public that YOU can preach YOUR ideas and opinions to. And many people hold YOU up to be some kind of deity, hero, oracle, font of knowledge, whatever you like. Ironically, like a god, you seem dismayed and bewildered and angry that you have given your children such wonderful gifts and we have chosen to not use them as you expected us to. It’s hard when mere mortals cannot grasp the magnitude of the divine vision and wisdom.

I am not saying that you want that. In fact I believe that you are uncomfortable with it and I consider that to be a good thing. But I equally feel that you sometimes forget that. Me or anyone else not agreeing with you is no bad thing either. You need to be told when you are talking rubbish (or at least when someone feels you are). I am not so sure that you handle that so well at times though. You have to realise that when you decide to put the boot in to someone you can expect a tide of people supporting you. But you have to accept that you will get that support even when you are wrong. And yes, like me there are times when you are wrong. Why? Because you are human, you make mistakes, like the rest of us (except of course dst, who is never wrong (there is an element of sarcasm there) ).

I am far from perfect. There is always more I could do, should do even. But don’t dare to tell me to stop whining, or man up, or what have you, unless you are willing to do the same yourself. Stop blaming others, lead by example.

[Burns]

If we consider Mur as our ingame god/hero/overlord, which is not all that far fetched considering his powers, i simply can't resist to reverse your argument:
Why would god do what you don't want to?

God told Noah to build an arch, and gave him instructions, tools, skills and resources needed, but he didn't build it. He had Noah build it.
Why did he do that? He could have snipped his fingers and the arch would've been there, right?

God helps them who help themselves, Aesop knew that 500 BC and wrote it in 'Hercules and the Wagoneer'.
The more problems Mur takes care of for us, the less we will handle ourselves. Undoubtedly you remember all the events around Bob and Awii. When people make changes, not just write about them or consider them, but do everything they can with all the options they have, Mur steps down and helps them. There are so many little things that just happen because people did their very best to help themselves. There was a pub before the beercask, for example.

If you consider Mur as just another player who felt bothered by Eon, your point is valid, but if you don't... praying doesn't help that often.


I can't comment about the things you wrote about Mur's style in personal relations, as i just don't have that much contact with him. As mod i have to add that Mur said that none of his posts were to be altered, i'm not content with his language myself -.-

[Seigheart]

I am going to get in crap for saying this, but...

[b]Quit your Complaining[/b][b]. [/b]

Was this thread necessary?

I am not defending Mur here, because some/most of this is or may be true. But this was not something to be posted in the forum, publically.

What do you wish to accomplish with this?

Do you have any sort of plan for this thread? Any goal? Or is this just another lousy rant about something else?

This Forum has had enough of complaining, and enough witch hunts.

Edited October 30, 2011 by Vicarious

[Nimrodel]

Rich coming from you 'Vicarious'

[Muratus del Mur]

If i say "you have issues" would that be opinion or offence? Cause thats how i think right now, and to be honest i don't give a FUCK that you don't agree to the way i talk. People play pretend and talk nice just when they have something to lose, but when they are at the edge of quitting they enjoy talking shit to me.. so you claim I can't afford talking honest in the only place I can't leave from? Same rule for all? That is funny comming from one that can alter his land rules as he thinks fit and that benefits of a certain level of immunity. Have you ever heard of diplomatic immunity? Consider me the president, judge me for my 'crimes' when i will be gone, till then if i feel some spices are needed to make my speech more hot , i will add them as I think fit.

You basically make no point in all of the above, I find it hard not to make sarcastic comments or sounding offending, I still don't know what it is that bothers you. You make topics with titles like "shameful MD", when you, as a symbolic role, represent a big percentage of MD, and you expect me to talk nice?

I get it. you have a very fragile ego, you have personal problems at home or work, _WHATEVER_ , we all do, you need to vent, fine..thats the only excuse i can find you, and i am doing an effort here.

"i never appologized" ..maybe true..this is beacause appology is in my view a cowardly reaction aimed to save us from the effects of our mistakes. I do however admit when i am wrong and by not appologising I show i take full responsability for my own mistakes.


So in the end, you have an issue with me? with md in general? with the fact you are not in the council? with what, put it in less words so my frustrated tired brain can comprehend it.

[Kamisha]

Ok can we all just step back for a second.
Sure I don't like all of murs decisions and I have made that very clear in allot of my posts that concern him. I also am a bit concerned with his thought that he is superhuman and in his own words a god of MD. Thats fair enough he created the world. However in most cases I have to say that he is fair. He rarely bans people who speak there mind i mean your still here Firsanthalas and in this last post you defiantly proved mur to be human because I think you got under his skin a bit. (Congratulation on mission accomplished by the way.)

However before anybody thinks I am taking sides I don't totally support mur either. Especially in his current post:
[quote name='Muratus del Mur' timestamp='1319999476' post='94939']
If i say "you have issues" would that be opinion or offence? Cause thats how i think right now, and to be honest i don't give a FUCK that you don't agree to the way i talk. People play pretend and talk nice just when they have something to lose, but when they are at the edge of quitting they enjoy talking shit to me.. so you claim I can't afford talking honest in the only place I can't leave from? Same rule for all? That is funny comming from one that can alter his land rules as he thinks fit and that benefits of a certain level of immunity. Have you ever heard of diplomatic immunity? Consider me the president, judge me for my 'crimes' when i will be gone, till then if i feel some spices are needed to make my speech more hot , i will add them as I think fit.

You basically make no point in all of the above, I find it hard not to make sarcastic comments or sounding offending, I still don't know what it is that bothers you. You make topics with titles like "shameful MD", when you, as a symbolic role, represent a big percentage of MD, and you expect me to talk nice?

I get it. you have a very fragile ego, you have personal problems at home or work, _WHATEVER_ , we all do, you need to vent, fine..thats the only excuse i can find you, and i am doing an effort here.

"i never appologized" ..maybe true..this is beacause appology is in my view a cowardly reaction aimed to save us from the effects of our mistakes. I do however admit when i am wrong and by not appologising I show i take full responsability for my own mistakes.


So in the end, you have an issue with me? with md in general? with the fact you are not in the council? with what, put it in less words so my frustrated tired brain can comprehend it.
[/quote]

I don't know but this seems allot like a personal attack but I do have to say you did start it Firsanthalas and I have to say you have undermined your last topic called shameful MD. I find it increasingly amusing that you don't want to single anybody out and people believe it even though you seem quite OK with singling people out in other posts.

Now to be fair my findings I likely ill placed I am only at 672 active days with 45% activity. Maybe I got unlucky and ended up on the wrong days to make a decision. Though that's what I find.

Though we are not going to get anywhere with two people calling each other names. So can you both step off it and just calm the FUCK down.

[Muratus del Mur]

[quote]I also am a bit concerned with his thought that he is superhuman and in his own words a god of MD[/quote]
hey don't put words in my mouth, i never said i am a superHUMAN
And yeah, i am a _god_ in MD, by all meanings of the word, i create i destroy i have life and death rights, i alter reality, i am above any law, i can move mountains if i so want, or even better, create them, so yeah technically i am a god in md...can't deny that. Careful how you put that, i don't want to have to write in bold "IN MD" because you think i think "i am a god", and MD is not my own 'god delusion playground'. If these two different things , rl and in-game, are risky to mix for you, they don't for me.


It sounds as a personal attack to Firs, because I am an animal, like all of you, and when someone bites me i bite back. Not to mention its a totally bad period for me to think of all this, but thats an other story. The forum is a mixed realm between outer world and md world, so when i get attacked sometimes is not Mur answering. Have that sort of attitude with me in the realm Firs and Mur would reply without the human factor to it, you will be amazed how well i make a difference and how unreasonably cruel i can be if needed. And none of you dare to think i dont have moods and that wont reach a point where i will be full of all this...this.


One thing i can brag about in MD is not that "i am a god" thats something that comes along weather i like it or not...it is however the fact that i believe to be FAIR/JUST ..not sure the difference in the words, but you know how i am and what i mean. Again, i still don't get it what you want from me, summerize this "naked truth" please, like i would be an idiot, explain me , what is it you want to achieve by this except the obvious off getting me angry.

[Pipstickz]

I wasn't going to post here, but Firs, take a step back and look: You've posted two topics in the last couple days, one saying all of MD is at fault for harassment, and now this one saying that Mur does everything wrong, both of which are more than I, personally, care to read, so I've just skimmed VERY lightly through both of them, half because I'm lazy and half because I pretty much know what you're going to say anyways. Honestly though, whether I read thoroughly or not, the more you write on the forum, the more is open to interpretation by the reader. Perhaps you should keep that in mind next time you have a point to get across?

[Peace]

I haven't actually read in full detail all this thread but from a quick look of it, all I can say is this:

I am disappointed.

Not by Mur, who am I to judge what he chooses to do with a project that is his only to deal with as he wishes, but with YOU Firsanthalas.

It is a good thing to express your opinion and another to cross the line. I expected more from you.

I second Burns and Pipstickz.

[Amoran Kalamanira Kol]

Whether anyone might believe it to be ridiculous or not, many arguments start from people simply not understanding one another. It is a human trait to want courtesy and mutual respect. I feel that honestly a lot of things are not handled very well in MD, and that Firs has a reason to speak up- but that his reason, no matter how well intentioned it is, is being fogged by his general upset.

There is some truth to what Firs says, and I don't think he's just saying it to whine or whatever. I have the feeling that Firs is genuinely concerned, despite him being argumentative. This is a trend that continues, players grow concerned by the state of things- or the treatment they receive.. and the concerns tend not to be heard well due to how they present them.

We should remember, at least, that it is unusual for a player in general to make not one thread, but two threads addressing concerns. More so, it is unusual for a king to make a thread like this, except in the event that he does not know what else to do.

How are these concerns, which Firsan speaks of, expected to be presented - if not bluntly and openly? While I feel that what was said here should have been discussed privately.. maybe others should give their thoughts too.

[Sharazhad]

[color=#008000][i]........ Right, I know I have been away for a long time. Im in Malawi, anyone who has been here knows what Im talking about.[/i][/color]
[color=#008000][i]I read Firsan's hot topic and now this... and this is my 2c:[/i][/color]

[color=#008000][i]MD is dying people... There is just a general lack of respect coming from all areas. Its a battle of egos!!! Everybody is stomping on everyone else to get to the top!!Bickering and fighting with each other will never solve anything. The system is failing, and I feel like we're behaving like rats on a sinking ship.[/i][/color]

[quote]"i never appologized" ..maybe true..this is beacause appology is in my view a cowardly reaction aimed to save us from the effects of our mistakes.

[/quote]


[color=#008000][i]Woah! Did I read that right?! Saying sorry does not let one of the hook!! If a mistake has been made there are still consequences to face. Is apologising a statement to say you are weak?! For me not apologising means one is too arrogant to care about the other person. Is caring about other people a sign that you are weak?! If that was the case it would mean everyone who working in sustainable development are pansies!!! [/i][/color]
[color=#008000][i]The most influencial leaders have never dictated but have mingled at grassroots level, e.g Ghandi or Nelson Mandela for that matter.[/i][/color]

[quote]There is some truth to what Firs says, and I don't think he's just saying it to whine or whatever. I have the feeling that Firs is genuinely concerned, despite him being argumentative. This is a trend that continues, players grow concerned by the state of things- or the treatment they receive.. and the concerns tend not to be heard well due to how they present them.[/quote]

[i][color=#008000]Ditto! Whenever someone brings up a point of contention, everyone goes down of them like bag of bricks. "Oh they are being irrational!" "Oh! They just need to man up!!" "She's just pmsing!" and my personal favourite "They just love to whine!" Does anyone listen to the message that was being conveyed or are we the players in the game, supposed to sit back and accept EVERYTHING that is dished out to us?! I tip my hat to those who have the balls to stand up and say: "Hey we have had enough of this! I want change" [/color][/i]

[i][color=#008000]I have read on the forums that players have to "man up, quit whining and adapt". uhhh... here's adaptation for you. Right now in Malawi, there is no fuel, no forex, no electricity most of the time and often no running water. This is mostly due the the horrible government that is in power. I think some players within MD would quite like Malawians because they dont complain (mostly in fear of the government) and adapt. As a result of their adaptation Blackmarket fuel and forex, poverty and deforestation is on an alarming increase. Has no complaining and adaptation worked? NO! Instead Criminal activities are on the increase. [/color][/i][i][color=#008000]Is that what you want? to favour the malicious? [/color][/i][i][color=#008000] People want to feel like they are being heard!!! [/color][/i]

[i][color=#008000]Another player said the council takes time. Why?! Why does it take time to respond to an email? I don't see why it should. It just seems like inefficiency to me or perhaps council members want to see how much of an interest we show with the topic of concern by the number of emails sent! Maybe a rep from council can clear this up for me?[/color][/i]

[i][color=#008000]Burns you made reference to Noah. Yes God gave Noah the plans to build an ark, but this is the same God who sent hellfire and brimstone to Sodom and Gomorrah. He didnt send a kid with matches and oil to burn the city down. There is a time when players should do things for themselves, but times when those in charge should intervene.[/color][/i]

[quote]God helps them who help themselves,[/quote]

[i][color="#008000"]I havent been much out to other lands, those who know me know why, so I cant really speak for other kings. I can tell you this however. Firs looks after Loreroot and does a lot for the land, and looks after it the best he can given the limitations. Why shouldn't he get the help he asked for?[/color][/i]

[i][color="#008000"] I still dont know why there is still so much animosity between some players and LR, all that shyte went down ages ago and I for one hate being called a tree-hugger or whiny Lorerootian just because the forest is the place that suits my character best! I ask you,[b] how is that different to racism or sexism[/b]?![/color][/i]

[color="#008000"][i]Things need to change and the roots of the problem needs to be addressed. Treating the symptom does not treat the cause! Perhaps the kings and queen, the council and the other powers that be (Mur? Akasha? Dst? Grido? chewett? dunno who ever you are) need to sit down over a few bottles whiskey or whatever and sort out these huge problems like bullying; because honestly an anti bullying coallition is going to have as much of an effect as the anti abortionists have protesting outside a an abortion clinic. Thats pretty much the same of any "protection" group formed within MD, its really useless without an authoritative stamp of approval or the tools to deal out punishment for that matter.[/i][/color]

edited because only half a message got posted...weird...

Edited November 1, 2011 by Sharazhad

[Phantom Orchid]

[quote name='Sharazhad' timestamp='1320185087' post='95075']
[i][color=#008000]Does anyone listen to the message that was being conveyed or are we the players in the game, supposed to sit back and accept EVERYTHING that is dished out to us?! I tip my hat to those who have the balls to stand up and say: "Hey we have had enough of this! I want change" [/color][/i]

[/quote]

And I tip my hat to those who have the ovaries to stand up and say the same thing!

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Sharazhad' timestamp='1320185087' post='95075']
[i][color=#008000]Ditto! Whenever someone brings up a point of contention, everyone goes down of them like bag of bricks. "Oh they are being irrational!" "Oh! They just need to man up!!" "She's just pmsing!" and my personal favourite "They just love to whine!" Does anyone listen to the message that was being conveyed or are we the players in the game, supposed to sit back and accept EVERYTHING that is dished out to us?! I tip my hat to those who have the balls to stand up and say: "Hey we have had enough of this! I want change" [/color][/i]

[color=#008000][i]Things need to change and the roots of the problem needs to be addressed. Treating the symptom does not treat the cause! Perhaps the kings and queen, the council and the other powers that be (Mur? Akasha? Dst? Grido? chewett? dunno who ever you are) need to sit down over a few bottles whiskey or whatever and sort out these huge problems like bullying; because honestly an anti bullying coallition is going to have as much of an effect as the anti abortionists have protesting outside a an abortion clinic. Thats pretty much the same of any "protection" group formed within MD, its really useless without an authoritative stamp of approval or the tools to deal out punishment for that matter.[/i][/color]
[/quote]
So, first you say you support people who speak up for themselves, and then you say that it's useless to try to act. At least that's how I'm reading it. Perhaps you're trying to say that people who talk about problems should be commended for it, but people who act are wasting their time? I do agree that the anti-bullying thing probably won't amount to much, but that's not because they don't have the tools to punish people. They have the community. The only problem with community punishment is that the community has to agree with you: You need to be right, and hopefully, fair. If they fail, they have themselves to blame, nobody else.

[quote name='Sharazhad' timestamp='1320185087' post='95075']
[i][color=#008000]Has no complaining and adaptation worked? NO! Instead Criminal activities are on the increase. [/color][/i][i][color=#008000]Is that what you want? to favour the malicious? [/color][/i][i][color=#008000] People want to feel like they are being heard!!! [/color][/i]
[/quote]
I don't know about you, but I feel heard. With the whole Grido case, even though the majority did not agree with me, I believe that I opened some eyes, and the future will tell if I changed Grido himself, and that's what it's about: believing in yourself.

[quote name='Sharazhad' timestamp='1320185087' post='95075']
[i][color=#008000]I havent been much out to other lands, those who know me know why, so I cant really speak for other kings. I can tell you this however. Firs looks after Loreroot and does a lot for the land, and looks after it the best he can given the limitations. Why shouldn't he get the help he asked for?[/color][/i]
[/quote]
Limitations. Hm. I'll try and put it into perspective: Necrovion has no (proper) king, and they seem to be functioning just fine, don't you think? Tell me what Firs wants (in short, please) and I can probably tell you how to do it without Mur, or at least why Mur shouldn't do it.

And finally, I saved the best one for last:
[quote name='Sharazhad' timestamp='1320185087' post='95075']
[i][color=#008000]I still dont know why there is still so much animosity between some players and LR, all that shyte went down ages ago and I for one hate being called a tree-hugger or whiny Lorerootian just because the forest is the place that suits my character best! I ask you,[b] how is that different to racism or sexism[/b]?![/color][/i]
[/quote]
I can't speak for others, but personally, I have nothing against any of the Lorerootian citizens on your own, it's the way you act as a group that bothers me. The loudest voice is heard the most, and Loreroot is sure good at shouting. I'll give a few examples, first, an obvious one: Darigan vs. Eon.
Darigan has been complaining non-stop about Eon for a while now, and there are plenty of people who sympathize with him (or rather, they dislike Eon), but did he actually try and do anything with that community support? No. I tracked him down and tried to explain, he still didn't do anything. Chewett blatantly told him what to do to fix the problem he had with GoE stones, and still, he just said "that'd be nice". Not "Ok, I'll get started" or "Can somebody help me make a list of who's got the spell?" Nothing. Now, look back into Loreroot history: how many times has there been talk about something, but never anything done? How many times has Loreroot solved its own problems, without even asking Mur?

Example two happens to be from a personal conversation:
It was during the 2010 festival (I believe), when Mur was handing out vet medals at DQ. You, Sharazhad, came up for a vote, and I voted no. A Lorerootian asked me "Why did you vote no? She's your friend. You could've just not voted at all." Is that sort of thing the way of Loreroot? If your opinion isn't the same as ours, don't say it? It honestly seems that way, because I don't recall any time I've seen a Lorerootian disagree with Firs since he became king.

In very short:
1. Lots of talk but no action
2. Hivemind opinions, no diversity

Edited November 2, 2011 by Pipstickz

[Jubaris]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1320216390' post='95094']
It honestly seems that way, because I don't recall any time I've seen a Lorerootian disagree with Firs since he became king.
[/quote]

Well, there were, but they ain't Lorerootians anymore.
It may seem biased, but it's not really, I haven't seen any kind of initiative in Loreroot in the past year regarding anything, except Mya's quest tho I'm not familiar with its details.

You want to stop something, and there are lots of you? Well use those "cause" fights, get attention, work! Don't ask for everything on a plate!

Edited November 2, 2011 by Rhaegar Targaryen

[Firsanthalas]

[quote]"i never appologized" ..maybe true..this is beacause appology is in my view a cowardly reaction aimed to save us from the effects of our mistakes. I do however admit when i am wrong and by not appologising I show i take full responsability for my own mistakes.[/quote]

Actually, from my point of view apologising IS showing and taking responsibility for your mistakes. Simply saying nothing gives the impression that you either don't care, don't acknowledge or are too cowardly to admit the mistake in the first place. And you never apologised or admitted you were in error. I'd have taken an admission as at least a grudging apology. Where I am coming from that is a complete lack of respect.

As for comments about my posting things. If you bother to look you will see that I have managed to get a HUGE debate about things going. There is also talk about people doing something now. Something that Mur himself was saying he was annoyed about the lack of. But feel totally free to focus only on the negative.

[quote]It honestly seems that way, because I don't recall any time I've seen a Lorerootian disagree with Firs since he became king.


Well, there were, but they ain't Lorerootians anymore.
It may seem biased, but it's not really, I haven't seen any kind of initiative in Loreroot in the past year regarding anything, except Mya's quest tho I'm not familiar with its details.[/quote]

Surely you guys can do better than that? Especially when you know fine well that is a load of tripe.
Now if you don't mind I am off to hide the brainwashing machine. Wouldn't want you to find it after all. It would take me ages to build another one. Of course, if you did, It might make me go make one that didn't only just work on intelligent people.

[Nimrodel]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1320216390' post='95094']
And finally, I saved the best one for last:

I can't speak for others, but personally, I have nothing against any of the Lorerootian citizens on your own, it's the way you act as a group that bothers me. The loudest voice is heard the most, and Loreroot is sure good at shouting. I'll give a few examples, first, an obvious one: Darigan vs. Eon.
Darigan has been complaining non-stop about Eon for a while now, and there are plenty of people who sympathize with him (or rather, they dislike Eon), but did he actually try and do anything with that community support? No. I tracked him down and tried to explain, he still didn't do anything. Chewett blatantly told him what to do to fix the problem he had with GoE stones, and still, he just said "that'd be nice". Not "Ok, I'll get started" or "Can somebody help me make a list of who's got the spell?" Nothing. Now, look back into Loreroot history: how many times has there been talk about something, but never anything done? How many times has Loreroot solved its own problems, without even asking Mur?

Example two happens to be from a personal conversation:
It was during the 2010 festival (I believe), when Mur was handing out vet medals at DQ. You, Sharazhad, came up for a vote, and I voted no. A Lorerootian asked me "Why did you vote no? She's your friend. You could've just not voted at all." Is that sort of thing the way of Loreroot? If your opinion isn't the same as ours, don't say it? It honestly seems that way, because I don't recall any time I've seen a Lorerootian disagree with Firs since he became king.

In very short:
1. Lots of talk but no action
2. Hivemind opinions, no diversity
[/quote]


Firstly Pip, Darigan was the only one to shout loud enough to attract the attention of people like you. You'd prolly understand the extent of spread of the humongous number of 'whiners' If you HAD spent one busy day in MDP. But oh wait. You NEVER EVER did that. Niether are you amongst those who want to train their stats. SO QUIT BEING A MEGA JERK who Clearly despises anyone and anything to do with Loreroot and stop pretending like you understand how hard it is to fight stat damage.

How many times Has loreroot solved its problems without asking Mur? Lol... When Firs excommunicated Rhaegar out of loreroot for declaring himself as a rebel there was such a hue and cry. You, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN YOUR LIFE, supported Rhaegar after that. Following the Rhaegar episode, Loreroot has been stable. Peaceful. No matter what or who is responsible for that, credit partly goes to the King as well. I would say Loreroot solved its own problem without begging Mur.

You havent seen a lorerootian disagree with Firs? Why Should we? And Why should we show YOU out of all people that we've had a disagreement? You are no one to loreroot. Or anyone who is not concerned as a matter of fact.

The Joke is... You made such a scene about the Grido issue... Wierd how you can change when it comes to Loreroot.

To summarise Pip in short:
- Loud mouth.
- Severely demented and narrow minded when it comes to anything associated with Loreroot/ Yrthilian.
- Wants people to take him seriously for once in their lives.

[quote name='Rhaegar']

Well, there were, but they ain't Lorerootians anymore.
It may seem biased, but it's not really, I haven't seen any kind of initiative in Loreroot in the past year regarding anything, except Mya's quest tho I'm not familiar with its details.

You want to stop something, and there are lots of you? Well use those "cause" fights, get attention, work! Don't ask for everything on a plate![/quote]

So says someone whom I've hardly seen active EVEN when I was on MD for around 10-12hrs a day.

[awiiya]

[quote name='Firsanthalas' timestamp='1320247258' post='95139']

Actually, from my point of view apologising IS showing and taking responsibility for your mistakes. Simply saying nothing gives the impression that you either don't care, don't acknowledge or are too cowardly to admit the mistake in the first place. And you never apologised or admitted you were in error. I'd have taken an admission as at least a grudging apology. Where I am coming from that is a complete lack of respect.

As for comments about my posting things. If you bother to look you will see that I have managed to get a HUGE debate about things going. There is also talk about people doing something now. Something that Mur himself was saying he was annoyed about the lack of. But feel totally free to focus only on the negative.



Surely you guys can do better than that? Especially when you know fine well that is a load of tripe.
Now if you don't mind I am off to hide the brainwashing machine. Wouldn't want you to find it after all. It would take me ages to build another one. Of course, if you did, It might make me go make one that didn't only just work on intelligent people.
[/quote]

Come now Firs, you taking credit for the actions of others is analogous to someone taking responsibility for a river because they offhandedly plucked a stone. Let me be clear: you are not important in this process. You could be anybody. You just happen to be in the right place at the right time, and we, the community, happened to respond in the correct way.

The credit belongs to us. Not you.

You ,as a person, still have done nothing besides create a board. Does a gambler take credit when he rolls the dice and gets snake eyes?

Awi

And as an aside, getting a huge debate going is not much of a challenge in general, but especially for this type of community. Just say something moderately ambiguous and insulting. Aka: "Shame on you."

Edited November 2, 2011 by awiiya

[Firsanthalas]

I am not taking credit Awiiya. Please do presume to think that I am. But I am saying that there is a potential silver lining.

Ohh, and the gambler is always to get the credit or the blame. They rolled the dice, the dice don't roll themselves

And it would also be nice if maybe you took the time to point out when people were being directly insulting as opposed to just 'moderately and ambiguously insulting'.

[Jubaris]

[quote name='Firsanthalas' timestamp='1320247258' post='95139']
Surely you guys can do better than that? Especially when you know fine well that is a load of tripe.
Now if you don't mind I am off to hide the brainwashing machine. Wouldn't want you to find it after all. It would take me ages to build another one. Of course, if you did, It might make me go make one that didn't only just work on intelligent people.
[/quote]

Shame on you. Would add few sentences as a response, that you surely deserve, but you won't provoke me this time.

[quote name='Nimrodel' timestamp='1320251051' post='95142']
So says someone whom I've hardly seen active EVEN when I was on MD for around 10-12hrs a day.
[/quote]

You're missing my point, it isn't about an random individual, nor is it about hours-per-day-used-on-MD, it's about making any project at all, quests, events, organizations of some kind, active involvement in something, which surely you can notice that Loreroot lacks, and if anyone should be responsible, it should of course be Firsanthalas as its sovereign, he is the one responsible for your land.
Why was that mentioned in the beginning anyway? I simply connected myself to Pipstickz post, and the "stereotype" that Firsanthalas doesn't do anything and that only complains which was one of the soul issues in this topic, no?

Authority can be made without additional game mechanics gadgets, it is a social thing, it is in organization... I know about Firsanthalas frustration that he "can't do things he must as a king", which lasts since the moment he got the kingship, I honestly don't remember once that he tried to do something in relation with the land (if we forget about his lobby to get excommunication items).
WHERE'S WILL - THERE'S A WAY (and be assured that this applies in MD 100%), and I notice a huge lack of will to engage in anything, yet plenty of energy to complain how everything is hard.

You can see this as an insult... Or as a sign to try to make things better?

[Firsanthalas]

Rhaegar,

How many LHOs are from Loreroot?
Also, how many events has Loreroot run each year? Because I think that there has not been a year since I have been king that Loreroot has not organised some kind of event. There have been fighting events, quiz things and other contests. There is a constant quest running from Mya aimed at newbies and letting people into Loreroot. And even if you don't like them there are the services etc that COE do.
Now, what events have been run by MB? GG? or Necro?
By the way, I don't care about what other lands do or do not do event wise. I for one am not having a poke at the other lands or kings, but I feel that seeing as you are saying that Loreroot does nothing and not bothering to mention anyone else; well I thought I'd just make the point that perhaps, just perhaps you are being unfair?

(I am sure there have been events run, I don't keep track because I don't keep score, so don't bother to list them. I am simply making the point that you are saying something that is untrue).

[quote]Authority can be made without additional game mechanics gadgets, it is a social thing, it is in organization...[/quote]

And finally someone gets it. You cannot solve a social problem like bullying or harrassment or what have you with a game mechanic or tool such as a needle. The tool itself can simply be used as a tool to further these social problems and therefore end up adding to the problem instead of fixing it.
You don't hand out knives or guns to school kids to stop bullying etc. You don't hand out knives or guns to ordinary citizens to attack people that are making their life hell. While MD is not exactly real life some things still hold true. Social issues needs social and socially created organisational responses and safeguards, not user enabled revenge.

Edited November 2, 2011 by Firsanthalas

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Nimrodel' timestamp='1320251051' post='95142']
Firstly Pip, Darigan was the only one to shout loud enough to attract the attention of people like you. You'd prolly understand the extent of spread of the humongous number of 'whiners' If you HAD spent one busy day in MDP. But oh wait. You NEVER EVER did that. Niether are you amongst those who want to train their stats. SO QUIT BEING A MEGA JERK who Clearly despises anyone and anything to do with Loreroot and stop pretending like you understand how hard it is to fight stat damage.
[/quote]
I've replied to some of other Eon complaining topics, it just so happens Darigan kept on complaining. Buy day in MDP? Has nothing to do with my role, why should I? I don't want to train my stats? Flat out lie. I despise Loreroot? No, if I really did, then I wouldn't have bothered offering to help Firs, which he seems to have ignored in favour of arguing with Rhaegar. I don't know anything about stat damage? On the contrary. Eon attacks me just like everybody else, other than those who he actively targets.

[quote name='Nimrodel' timestamp='1320251051' post='95142']
How many times Has loreroot solved its problems without asking Mur? Lol... When Firs excommunicated Rhaegar out of loreroot for declaring himself as a rebel there was such a hue and cry. You, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN YOUR LIFE, supported Rhaegar after that. Following the Rhaegar episode, Loreroot has been stable. Peaceful. No matter what or who is responsible for that, credit partly goes to the King as well. I would say Loreroot solved its own problem without begging Mur.
[/quote]
Loreroot did not solve its own problems in the Rhaegar incident, Rhaegar didn't just walk to jail, Firs sent him with the brand new excommunication tool that he got while the argument was happening.
And yeah, I supported Rhaegar, because I believed Firs was acting unfairly, is there something wrong with that? I also supported Seig in the dst thing, even though I rather dislike the guy. Are you going to tell me that I don't really care for justice, and that all I want is to make my "enemies" look bad?

[quote name='Nimrodel' timestamp='1320251051' post='95142']
You havent seen a lorerootian disagree with Firs? Why Should we? And Why should we show YOU out of all people that we've had a disagreement? You are no one to loreroot. Or anyone who is not concerned as a matter of fact.
[/quote]
It's nice that you speak for all of Loreroot, but I assure you that I'm not No one.

[quote name='Nimrodel' timestamp='1320251051' post='95142']
The Joke is... You made such a scene about the Grido issue... Wierd how you can change when it comes to Loreroot.
[/quote]
How have I changed since then?

[quote name='Nimrodel' timestamp='1320251051' post='95142']
To summarise Pip in short:
- Loud mouth.
- Severely demented and narrow minded when it comes to anything associated with Loreroot/ Yrthilian.
- Wants people to take him seriously for once in their lives.
[/quote]
And this is a perfect example of another reason I dislike Loreroot: you make everything personal, you can't just keep the arguments on topic. Oh well, I have thick skin.

[Darigan]

OK people this is just going to keep going around and around and solve nothing. the point of this thread has gone way off base that I'm not even sure what this has become other then another rant against certain people or groups which solves nothing. The community is a large body of ideas, opinions, and egos. Pointing all those egos and opinions in a central direction is never going to be a walk in the park, but the need for some respect amongst players is paramount. You may not like each other and many of you may dislike me greatly, but there is no need for personal attacks or belittling of a person or groups character just to make yourself feel big or whatever.

Is it possible for this community as a whole to come together and work against bullying, harassment, and abuses of all the sorts. I don't know but I sure hope and wish that it could happen.

I"m not saying any of this as Darigan, a lorerootian, or even as a player of the game, but as a person who desperately wishes to see some common unity rather then people bickering until the end of time.

[CrazyMike]

I am in Jail, but I always consider myself a Lorerootian.

I find it offensive that just because we only show solidarity, people assume that everyone is in agreement.

Lorerootians do our bickering, fighting and show our unhappiness within our private meetings. We do not need to tell the whole world what we fought about.

In public, we show our full support to our King.

We agree to disagree.

There are times when that didnt work, they leave.

I agree with the points made by Firs, but I am dissapointed that this is brought out in public.

[Jubaris]

[quote name='Firsanthalas' timestamp='1320266398' post='95153']
And finally someone gets it. You cannot solve a social problem like bullying or harrassment or what have you with a game mechanic or tool such as a needle. The tool itself can simply be used as a tool to further these social problems and therefore end up adding to the problem instead of fixing it.
You don't hand out knives or guns to school kids to stop bullying etc. You don't hand out knives or guns to ordinary citizens to attack people that are making their life hell. While MD is not exactly real life some things still hold true. Social issues needs social and socially created organisational responses and safeguards, not user enabled revenge.
[/quote]

Great, then organize a response in game, make your presence felt, criticize, defend how you can, raise some rhetoric against the bullies and label them as such to the world, just let's not make "sigh" topics for they ultimately won't change much.

[Firsanthalas]

That is what I am trying to do Rhaegar. Maybe I am doing it wrong. But I am trying to raise awareness. I don't think a little committee of people is the answer. I think people need to be yelled at and shamed into looking at it. Hence my threads, hence titles like Shameful MD and Naked Truth. Things will not change unless the folks at the top take notice and accept that there is a problem. The fact that anyone has agreed with me at all, either by scoring my posts in a positive manner or responding personally has been completely overlooked or discounted as being the prattle of mindless Lorerootians. Something which itself is indicative of the problem (and for those people who love to just continue this, please at least try to consider for a minute that not all the people that have complained, or whined as you put it are from Loreroot. At least admit to that). I don't have all the answers, I don't pretend to, despite what some people think. It is a little bit sad how quick some people have been to simply dismiss me or tell me I am simply doing it wrong. Why not give a meaningful suggestion on how I may do it right then? Or better yet, go do it. Show me and everyone else how it is done.