Alt Benefiting Mains

[Seigheart]

Alts cannot be used to benefit mains.

A well known rule. One that should be followed to allow for a fair and equal game(in the most general of senses).

But it has come to light that this rule is too vague and needs to be clarified.

Alts are any account that is not considered your main. Your main(correct me if I am wrong) is the account to which you favour, and play the most. It may not be the one with the most AD, or the strongest, but the one to which is most "popular".

Now, to use any other account, besides the "Main" is to be considered an alternate account, AKA an alt.

When you use these Alts, you gather information. It can't be helped. You see conversations, or learn new things about combat, or other players. It's inevitable.

How can the rule restrict someone from not using information they learn on one account, and applying it to their main? It's benefiting them, is it not? So it isn't allowed, right?

[Kyphis the Bard]

There is a topic working to clarify the alt abuse rules [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/10339-clarifications-on-alt-abuse-and-related-rules/"]here[/url].

The CLC has made a statement regarding its stance on this particular aspect [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/11338-cowardice-seasoned-with-a-bit-of-hypocrisy/page__st__57"]here[/url].

To clarify your definition of alts and mains, for the purposes of alt abuse it does not matter which account is considered the alt or the main. If you have multiple accounts, and one account helps another, then both accounts are guilty of alt abuse. It does not matter which is considered the alt and which the main, both are guilty.
The difference between an alt and a main only comes into play when there is severe alt abuse, to the point that all accounts will be banned. Depending on the nature of the offense, it may be the punishment that all but one account are permanently jailed, in such a case the account which will be given a temporary jailtime is the account considered by the punishing body as the main, while the accounts given permanent bans are considered by the punishing body as the alts.
ie for determining if there an abuse happened, an accounts status as alt or main is irrelevant. For determining severity of punishment, an accounts status as alt or main may play a factor in some cases.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Kyphis the Bard

[Pipstickz]

If you use your alt to benefit your main at all, it is abuse. If you get caught abusing, depending on the severity and how popular you are, either nobody cares and you might get a warning (something like giving your alt a silver coin, or talking on an alt when you're silenced, or having one or two alt-adepts), or everybody notices and you get punished (past cases include mains training on alts, farming credit bonuses/coins on alts for the main, and alts giving WPs to main). There are cases where people have abused their alts, been caught and gotten away with it (includes giving WPs from alts to main, holding creatures/coins on alts, creating items with alts, and using alts to reach MP6). Abuse alts at your own discretion, but if you are caught going too far, you're more likely to be punished than not. People have gotten away with some stupid things, doesn't mean you will. If you are at all worried about an action you plan to take, ask. People will be more likely to believe you when you say "I thought it was ok" if those people know you were told it was by, say, Grido.

[Tipu]

[quote]
Posted 24 November 2010 - 04:56 PM

11) Spoiler is again an offense in MD right? But how come u can have Alts then, Ok let me explain this
Lets take two scenario:
First
a)Lets say player 'A' Join MD and plays for 200 active days
b)Player 'B' joins in
c)Player 'A' gives all the spoilers of MD to player 'B'
Player 'A' gets punished cos he has given all info which he knows to player 'B' and thats spoiler.ok
Second
a)Player 'A' joins MD and plays for 200 active days
b)Then player 'A' creates his Alt player 'A1'. Now player 'A1' knows everything what player 'A' knows(how to solve bresker puzzle, How to beat LR guards, knows which ritual to be used to increase certain stats and many more it goes on)
My point what difference it make btw player 'B' and 'A1'. Cos now player 'A1' becomes legal. Even thought all the spoilers or fact are shared btw player A and A1 but thats legal????
[/quote]

I Post this almost a yr back ...
and this is what i got in return

[quote]reading the other things i saw in the above discussions make my head spinn, i won't reply to them.
[/quote]

[quote]i would declare your brain as a separate state with a will of its own , not in relation with you or what you type, that would be your only excuse for such a nonsense. Do you even read what you're posting ?[/quote]

So now u know why i became an Anti-Social hehe

Edited January 6, 2012 by Tipu

[Magistra]

I am a relatively new player and have never given the alt question much notice. I guess I knew that they were used by some players, but that was it. But after reading about it ( I read the former and now locked topic) I must say I am a little disappointed.

No, it goes further than that. I am a little shocked. First of all it is rather absurd to state that you gain nothing from using alts. Of course you do! Even if you use them fairly you gain information that others don't. You can be at two placed at once where others have to choose. But secondly: why are you using alts?

Do you find this game so boring that your main cannot fill the time? That is really something to think about. I have heard somebody say that he/she was using alts to "find other things out" and I can even proof that because it was sent to me in a pm. Why would you find other things out if not for benefits?

As a player without alts: I'd like to know with whom I'm talking. I hate the thought of speaking to two people in game that are one and the same.

As I stated before: I never gave it much thought, but now I'm thinking that maybe I should get myself some alts too. I'd like to find some things out too.

[Chewett]

[quote name='Magistra' timestamp='1325851534' post='100067']
I am a relatively new player and have never given the alt question much notice. I guess I knew that they were used by some players, but that was it. But after reading about it ( I read the former and now locked topic) I must say I am a little disappointed.

No, it goes further than that. I am a little shocked. First of all it is rather absurd to state that you gain nothing from using alts. Of course you do! Even if you use them fairly you gain information that others don't. You can be at two placed at once where others have to choose. But secondly: why are you using alts?

Do you find this game so boring that your main cannot fill the time? That is really something to think about. I have heard somebody say that he/she was using alts to "find other things out" and I can even proof that because it was sent to me in a pm. Why would you find other things out if not for benefits?

As a player without alts: I'd like to know with whom I'm talking. I hate the thought of speaking to two people in game that are one and the same.

As I stated before: I never gave it much thought, but now I'm thinking that maybe I should get myself some alts too. I'd like to find some things out too.
[/quote]

Alts can have beneficial and approved uses. I spend some time doing bug tests, and sometimes these tests involve my account getting banned... repeatedly. I have numerous alts that are specifically used for this purpose (you can see [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/10364-full-disclosure-about-chew-x-accounts/"]this[/url] topic). In my case, if you are talking to any of my alts, they are myself, They dont have any other role, and i use them as if they are my main. Do simply to things my main shouldn't (again read topic).

As for getting alts specifically to find out more infomation, i agree this is wrong, And dislike it when people try and play lots of alts in many different lands. Choose one role, and stick to it lol. Each time people create another, they start again with no real history.

[Maebius]

I am curious how to mesh this with the recommendation that Alts are almost "encouraged" to play with Story Mode.
I'm trying to find if it's a forum post, or announcement,m but back when I was MP3, I asked about trying different story-mode choices to at least two LHOs (forget who), and vets, and heard more than once "Yes, feel free".

That could be considered abuse in the strictest sense.
(note, those story alts never made it out of MP3 for a reason, to prevent having "roles", and sit idle now)

[Passant the Weak]

It's in the restriction section:
[quote]
[b]Uncommon things that you CAN do[/b][list]
[*]You can have multiple accounts, to try out story, to experince new ways of play etc ..., however if you are detected that you are using them just to help one of your main accounts , all of them including the main will get banned.
[/list]
[/quote]

The discussion in the thread that was locked was precisely around this "fine line" between what is authorised and what is not.

I think consensus was (almost) reached that if you are using ALTs to help your main know what happens somewhere, and thus make the choice whether you will go there or not is against the rule. I perfectly agree with all what Magistra said on that matter.

Other people said that you are doing the same when talking to other people either ingame or via external messenger to get those information. Well, that is perfectly allowed (even encouraged as far as i understand MD's policy) and it's called teaming. You just can't team with your ALT, pretty simple rule.

Then, there will always be people claiming that they don't learn things that way with their ALTs, or that you can't prove they do. But it does not make this behaviour more legit.

loose rules are the most convenient when people want to play fair game. Only when people try to abuse the system you need to tighten the rules. That happened with shared tools. If we want no possibility of ALT abuse the way it was evocated in the other thread, because some go beyond the line, then the best way would be:

- either forbid ALTs (with all usual implications/arguing that come from that)
or
- forbid having 2 ALTs connected at the same time and
- make an ingame mechanism forbidding to log on with an ALT within x hours after another was used

Of course those rules and ingame mechanisms can always be bypassed by usual tools used by MultiAccount professionals
And they would hurt badly those who use ALTs for playing 2 different characters fair way.

[Kaya]

There already is a rule that forbids using multiple accounts from the same computer (or network):
[i]"Keeping multiple browsers with multiple game accounts open at the same time will trigger a firewall rule that will get you banned from accessing the site, you better don't try that. You should be especialy carefull if you are in a network that exits on same IP with many others.[/i]"
I've never heard of any punishment regarding this rule other than the infamous multiple windows screen and the rule seems to be mainly there to prevent server overload.

One big problem with completely forbidding having two alts logged in at the same time is that there are many 'false' alts. Players that actually are different persons but are still flagged as alts, for them it may become nearly impossible to play when they can't log on at the same time.

[Passant the Weak]

[quote name='samon' timestamp='1325893965' post='100194']

One big problem with completely forbidding having two alts logged in at the same time is that there are many 'false' alts. Players that actually are different persons but are still flagged as alts, for them it may become nearly impossible to play when they can't log on at the same time.
[/quote]
Yes. It would need to be indicated within the game database. There are many other issues with that rule, all solvable. I am not saying it's something I'd like to see implemented: it's really not worth the trouble IMO. I'd prefer people to behave!

[nadrolski]

"[font=Georgia,]Ann. 2076 - [2011-11-12 07:20:00 - Stage 11][/font]
[color=#000000][font=Georgia,]Sent to jail for shared tools related abuse: Nadrolski, Paracelsus, Mighty Pirate. jail time two weeks (to be relased after day 330). At the time i issued the warnings i said something about a bounty for anyone helping to track item related abuses or potential abuses, the bounty collected by Eon.[/font][/color]"

[url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/10924-eons-help/"]Eon's Help (or Eno's Help) link[/url]

a clear evidence that Eon benefited from his GPS named Eno (his email-unverified account).

And off topic:

are we allowed to post terms such as the word [b]ORGASMIC[/b] onto our profiles?

and below his profile are the copy/pasted quotes by people cursing in-game, which one of them is me.

i said those things in chat, i do not deny them, because of frustrations, etc., and it happened at Awiiya's Way, with Eon, idling Fire Starter and me present there. believing no newbies can easily go to that scene, and letting Eon read what i felt that time, and it'll be automatically erased after few hours, i did not cleared the chat. and it is not my intention to wave that copy/pasted banner to the public, but Eon's intentions, posting it on his profile. Eon seems to have a fond of cherishing memories, documenting such for public views. not my problem anymore.

[url="http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/7863/eonprofile011112.jpg"]Eon's profile[/url]

[dst]

[quote]a clear evidence that Eon benefited from his GPS named Eno (his email-unverified account).[/quote]

Err...I see name on those print screens. Can you prove it was the alt and not someone else?

[Pipstickz]

Eon's account is verified, so either Eon did not take the screenshots, or it is Eon's alt. Take your pick, "Investigator".

[nadrolski]

there are screen shots with the idle interface. the Eon account rarely idles on semi-remote/remote locations, but most of the time in main lands where everybody can see him. and do Eon really idles/logs out that much? [b]his traces are almost everywhere, all day everyday, active and not idling![/b]

his initial screen shots have the "email unverified" notice, then decided to hide the red bar by logging-out the account,shown on the succeeding screen shots, making everyone stupid that we did not saw that notice before [size=2]lol[/size]

how can the Eon account view and take screen shots from the MDA log room if it is always busy chasing those grinding mp5s outside MDA?

and why overprotecting your master, investigator?

Edit:

please see post #22 from the [i]Eon's Help[/i] thread. an MDA citizen knew it was an alt. also post #21.

Edited January 11, 2012 by nadrolski

[Eon]

Is it proof? I see no name on that screenshot indicating what account that came from exactly.

Eon was unverified for a week back then. I guess you guy's have forgotten people can go unverified anytime they want.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Eon

[nadrolski]

not only a proof, but the truth

you toggle the "unverified account" and log out every time you do bounty hunting?

[Pipstickz]

Your unwillingness to outright say you did not use an alt is as telling as if you were to say that you did. I don't think there's a doubt in anybody's mind that you did use an alt. That being said, if people get away with alt abuse much worse, it'd be rather stupid to punish anybody for doing this, when all it would've taken Eon to get the evidence himself is a walk to MDA.

Every time I see you defending yourself against accusations of such a silly, inconsequential "abuse", I see how petty you can be, Eon. What do you actually think would happen if you admitted to it?

[No one]

[quote name='samon' timestamp='1325893965' post='100194']
One big problem with completely forbidding having two alts logged in at the same time is that there are many 'false' alts. Players that actually are different persons but are still flagged as alts, for them it may become nearly impossible to play when they can't log on at the same time.
[/quote]
The "alt checker" is a bit more complicated then ip check. It has been created based on the "firewall rule" mentioned above and improved.

Thank you for your concern.

As stated when it was created by Mur if you see cases where you are not allowed to do things because you are considered an alt (and you are not), then you can post it somewhere so that the "alt checker" can be improved.

[Liberty4life]

wait ... what is this about? using alts for exploring the game from different point if view? as much as i remember exactly that is main pillar for allowance of alts, to see behind doors that you closed yourself with your main

[Seigheart]

No, it's about using alts to "gather information" which is apparently alt abuse since it is "benefiting" the main account.

[Liberty4life]

information like?

well this is thin ice we are talkin about in here, there is no room for compromise in this matter since its simply impossible for having alt and not seeing things happen around you, so in order to stop it, only way is to ban alts

and in the end i dont see the point of this gathering information to help main... afterall in any game that allows alts its clear whats forbiden to do with alts and whats not, those limitations on alts for games that allow them in vast majority cover the same problem as rules that forbid alts in other games, which is to permit players for collecting gains from massive activity(grinding/hoarding), or said in common words, to give casual players fair ground so they dont fall behind no lifers and to dicourage no lifers from sitting whole day in front of computer and pushing same damn button over and over again or repeating same actions, without any real interactions with others and by doing it in a way thats much easier to do it which wasnt designed by game devs

i dont see whats the fuss around this information thingy, it makes no sense to me >_>

Edited January 11, 2012 by Liberty4life

[dst]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1326275680' post='100432']
Eon's account is verified, so either Eon did not take the screenshots, or it is Eon's alt. Take your pick, "Investigator".
[/quote]

That shows how much you know about the game mechanics. As Eon told you: accounts CAN become unverified (if you have enough brains, you'll find out how by yourselves cause I will not tell you).

Besides, without any name on that print screen how can you prove it was Eon indeed and not somebody else? Your proofs are circumstantial. As long as I do not see a name or an id you cannot accuse anyone of anything.

So find something else cause this hand is dead.

[xrieg]

I suggest to abandon or close the topic. It's all right to read some topics and think 'I'm too old for this shit'.... but I feel uneasy if the same statement could have been originated from 10 year-old.
What's done is done. Dozens of ppl saw things happens, talked about it in public, knew it to be public knowledge - but apparently nobody decided to record enough screenshots and make it official... And with no screenshots the thing does not exist, eyewitnesses or not. Case is closed, apparently completely pointless to discuss. If it happens again take bloody screenshots.
On the other hand just a thought - say for the future... screenshots and mailed logs can be easy doctored - so what _should_ be considered carrying more weight and more reliable - numerous eyewitnesses' accounts of events - or some logs/screenshots single individual collected in location about nobody else would consider to visit and would not care about if it happened well away from prying eyes

[Kaya]

There is one thing that Eon most probably does using alts that is against the rules though. And that is saving a (or probably multiple) wishpoint or/and a lot of silver by using alts to find out players locations and therefore save Locate spells. Seeing one of Eon's alts and shortly thereafter seeing Eon is a strong indicator that Eon might be using her Alts for this, and if seen repeatedly could be used as prove to accuse Eon of a crime at least as bad as Neno's.
Also there should be no need for screenshots when there are multiple reliable eyewitness accounts. As Xrieg says for some people it's almost easier to alter a screenshot than to make a good fake testimony.