Revival Fruit

[Rumi]

(This thread is meant to work in conjunction with a few other active threads. Links will be added as new threads open.)

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/12461-help-fyrd-call-back-all-the-spirits/

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/12483-recipe-for-fyrds-bodhran-to-wake-the-dead/

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/12519-the-value-of-life-in-md/

Throughout the past year, we've seen a tremendous increase in fatalities of players in MagicDuel. Each of these murders has resulted in a flurry of community action, and all have eventually led to the revival of the dead. We've shown that the community can come together and express a collective action, gathering massive stores of heat, making our voices heard LOUD, and bringing resources together.

While these actions have resulted in revival, the process has sometimes dragged on for long periods of time. There has not been a clear process and ultimately, we rely on external power to notice and reward our efforts.

This is not the case for all. A number of players have been granted items that revive the dead, and apparently all of them would require a substantial payment for this service.

As suggested by Fyrd Argentus, it is time to bring this power to the hands of the many.

Our Community Garden has been designed by the whole community over the course of a year, and now it's time for the whole community to see the fruits of our efforts. We want to grow the Revival Fruit in the garden, and make it available to all. Rather than setting a price in gold, what is required is your Time, cooperation, renewable resources, and heat.

For those of you who have not followed the Community Garden development, the garden is designed to work in two ways. There is a plotholder area where gardeners can lease a plot for a season or a year to grow food and medicine for themselves. Surrounding the central plotholder area are a number of garden areas, held in common and tended by the Community Garden leadership. Each of these areas should produce food and medicine in their season to be distributed appropriately in the community (method will vary for each area).

One of these surrounding areas is the forest garden, set on the hillside west of the plotholder area, along the path toward Maple Road. We would like the Revival Fruit to be the primary resource harvested from the forest garden.

We are looking at a number of ideas for how this would work, both the process of growing the fruit, as well as what to do with it when harvested.

At the moment the process centers around two personal items, one held by Phantom Orchid, another held by Fyrd Argentus. These are the Apple Tree Branch and the Bodhran Drum.

Apple Tree Branch - A weathered branch from an apple tree. As told by teh Sibyl, carrying the golden bough of an apple branch is the only means of entering and returning safely from the Underworld.

Bodhran Drum - A wooden drum made from Loreroot oakwood and knator hide. Decorated with crests representing the earth and the forest. On the sides are a symbol of a sun and a moon.

I hope Phantom Orchid will elaborate a bit on the history of the Apple Tree Branch for us. As I understand it, the Apple Tree Branch was used to communicate with Mya Celestia, when she was murdered. It's use has always been associated with death and revival. The Bodhran drum has similarly been a dimensional-shifting, spirit-communing device. Generally the spirits have been from the outer spirit realm, and now Fyrd wishes to focus the drums resonance on the spirits here in our own realm. Fyrd has been drumming and the Apple Tree Branch has been resonating along the same harmonic frequency.

So, how does this all work? Actually, that's up to YOU! We want your input. Here's a few ideas we've been floating.

The plan we have been discussing calls for the community to begin gathering heat (and possibly some rare resources) to affect a change. We think that if enough heat is gathered, the Apple Tree Branch can sprout anew. It would either be planted directly in the community garden to grow into a tree, or it could sprout an apple, whose five seeds would contain the Revive magic. Four of these seeds would be planted to grow four revive apple trees, and the fifth would be saved and protected (likely given to Handy Pockets, our seed keeper). Each of the four trees would provide Revival Fruit in a different season, creating a 3-month guaranteed revival timeframe - provided the community is willing to come together and support the effort. I would like to see Phantom Orchid manage this harvest.

This brings us to the second part. How will the Revival Fruit become useable? Pickling of course! A handful of resources from around the realm would need to be gathered, as well as a significant amount of community heat. And drumming to create harmonic resonance with the fruit. This process would naturally be managed by Fyrd Argentus, our drumming and pickling specialist. He would require a heat gathering device (perhaps the drum) and a cauldron (pickling jar).

The methods in which this could work could vary quite a bit. We could see scene generated Revival Fruit (like herbs and memory stones) harvestable with the appropriate tool. Another suggestion is the development of the Apple Tree as a community driven item, similar to the Fierce Needle of Feebleness, requiring a heat cause in place of a fight cause. Other ideas include the Apple Tree as a first cauldron and the drum or pickle jar as a second cauldron. It's possible that we might want to develop an effective strategy utilizing existing features in concert with ideas for new features to develop a simpler process.

I'd like to open this thread to ideas from around the community. We certainly need ideas for the required resources for each process. We would also like to hear suggestions for other personal items and tools that would make sense as part of the process. We'd like to hear ideas for the development of the mechanics, both using existing features and potential new features. We'd like cauldron recipes in the appropriate format. We also want feedback in general regarding the concept and the process. And of course ideas for other game elements which the community garden can contribute.

STRONG CONTRIBUTIONS WILL BE ELIGIBLE FOR A WISHPOINT IF THEY DRIVE THIS CONCEPT TO IMPLEMENTATION.

Let's bring the Community Garden and our dead to life!

Edited June 23, 2012 by Rumi

[Grido]

Few questions;

1 - What happens when someone takes the fruit? As in someone who doesn't care to revive people. I could probably name 5 or so people that would be thus inclined, and that'd be plenty.

2 - If Fyrd goes inactive, without passing on his item, the whole system collapses?

3 - What effort, after the initial planting, and besides asking Fyrd to pickle, does the player put in?
For me the items that people have should be the easy option, and the alternative should be difficult - I worked hard to get mine, and Eon paid a lot to get his, any publicly available option should not make our tools worthless. I would like to clarify that my comment isn't out of greed, there definitely should be some sort of public option that doesn't cost so much.

[Rumi]

Thanks for your questions Grido... if anyone else wants to chime in, feel free.

1. We do intend to arrange distribution to be through the Community Garden Leadership. If revive fruit were to be a scene generated resource, the collection would require a tool available in the garden toolshed (ie: used by the leadership). Until the toolshed is coded to serve as an shared item distribution, my inclination is to see the harvest directly distributed within the leadership. If I were to name an individual, it would be Phantom Orchid, who is willing to sacrifice her personal item so that the community can have a revive item available.

2. I agree with you on the problem of Fyrd going inactive. He has offered to give ITC codes as a backup in case he disappears, although I still view this as a bottleneck. Perhaps a pickling jar (cauldron) would be a shared item, returned weekly to the garden toolshed. Fyrd has specifically stated his intention to have a revive item in the form of his drum. We'd like to see some way this can be incorporated into the community garden revival fruit project. I'm certainly open to suggestions of other ways this could work. As I mentioned, I feel the nature of a drum lends itself to heat gathering, and the process could possibly require any heat gathering personal item, rather than just Fyrd's drum.

3. The effort on the part of the community is the gathering of resources and heat. This is not so different from the revival methods used up to now. However, this would give us a reliable process to do it, rather than hoping that someone somewhere is listening.

Again, these ideas are a framework, not a final construct. I would like to hear recommendations which further community involvement, yet remain accessible so long as a number of community members are willing to put in the effort.

I cannot help but point out that it is you and Eon and other toolholders who have made your tools worthless. Like a carpenter whose tools gather dust in the toolshed, because he already has a house. His tools have become worthless when another carpenter constructs houses for the other townspeople and takes all the business.

You were all given tools so that the community had the power to revive itself, yet you have not made them available. Had you set a reasonable price, it would likely have been paid and your tools would have value. You could, as suggested, earn a regular income through murder. Instead, the public now demands their own tools, and we intend to grow them.

[Grido]

1. Is the a prevention to corruption? What stops the the Leadership from thinking "actually, we can make a few cents off this..." other than good intentions, of course.

2. See above.

3. I do not consider that a great deal of effort, unless you are thinking of large numbers involved.


What value is a life(in MD)? As demonstrated by his creatures being sold, 20gc was easily attainable for Spar he didn't want to spend it though (for fairly valid reasons not associated with the price)
That's a fairly bad analogy , since I'm not hiding away or unwilling to use my item, just apparently people consider it too pricey.
How about you define a reasonable price? Baring in mind that Eon paid 50gc for his, so a reasonable price would not be 5sc or such, as that would equate to 150 uses before he started making profit off it. Feel free to message me (anyone) regarding that, rather than derail the topic here. I should note I won't necessarily adopt said prices, but I'd be interested in what the general opinion is.

Also, I might be forgetful on this, but pretty sure nobody has actually tried to barter with me (my bad if they have), they've pretty much heard me say 20gc and then they turn around, lol. Not saying it would have worked, but for no attempt?

[Rumi]

1. How about some trust points? Also, without the community to activate it, the item is useless, and of no value.

3. Then let it be large numbers.... would you (or anyone) offer a suggestion for numbers? I'd like to see the process show merit, rather than "going through the motions". This is meant to be a reliable process, but it does not need to be easy or without effort.

With regards to your price, show me another independent tool that pays for itself with three uses. Certainly not an herb basket or woodcutting axe. I agree, though, that your revival price discussion probably deserves it's own thread or PM.

[Seigheart]

Perhaps because it's such an outrageous demand, that it is completely disgusting to even attempt to gouge someone for 20gc to play the game again

[awiiya]

Grido you're going to have to accept that you aren't going to make a profit off an item like that.

Eon paid his premium to HAVE the item, not expecting to get a profit. Imagine buying a luxury car or piece of jewelry.... it doesn't earn you anything... it's marginally useful, but certainly not profitable.

In short, you've used the revital item as a status symbol, not as an actual tool that should be used. What good is it doing you?

Awi

[Chewett]

I am also interesting in Point 1. Essentially you are saying you dont trust the community to gather and be trustful to get it, and that therefore you(general you) want to hold the item and therefore ability to revive people. Thats not much of a "community" garden is it?

Any "community" method of revival should never rely on one person using their item, all you are doing is saying its ok for you souly to hold the item because you are a "nice person". You effectively give yourself a revival item and say that you will use it for the community...

[quote name='Seigheart' timestamp='1340251418' post='115578']
Perhaps because it's such an outrageous demand, that it is completely disgusting to even attempt to gouge someone for 20gc to play the game again
[/quote]

Yet you feel its perfectly fine to kill someone so they cant play the game...

[Rumi]

Chewett, I agree with you. I would prefer to find a way for the community as a whole to harvest and activate a revival fruit. Perhaps I am not thinking "outside the box", in terms of what is possible.

I have a clear hesitation about the harvest being available for any individual to take. Since the day herbs were implimented Meeting of the Roads scene has been depleted. I thought putting the harvesting tool under lock and key could prevent this... NML land loyalty would probably not work the way it does with other shared items, although maybe it would.

I hope the idea of having a leadership group with a defined mission and trust points bring a level of trust/comfort, yet we have seen trust points removed for perceived abuses in other community held positions (ie: treasury/bhc). I'm not trying to put power in my own hands. I want to see the garden become integral to the realm, and this seems a logical implimentation.

Here's another idea:
Let's say the Revival Fruit is available in super-abundance in it's season. Anyone could harvest, but cooldown time is long enough to prevent hoarding. There could then be some negative association with holding a revive fruit in an inventory. Perhaps movement could be stifled, like in TC, or VE drained. This also might not be immediate, but after the Fruit "goes bad" without being processed and used. This way someone must really be committed and prepared for community revival, and not just grabbing to prevent others from using it. Double-edged sword.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Rumi

[Fire Starter]

Here is an idea - the tool for the gathering is stationary and activated with heat. When enough heat is gathered the tool is activated and a Revival Fruit is harvested,then the process of resurrecting can begin. If the Fruit process is fine, then Fyrd (or whoever has it for the moment) uses his Drum to summon the spirits of the dead, resurrects them and all are happy.

Some recipe should be invented, in order the Drum (Cauldron item) to work. Just summoning the spirits is too easy for me

In addition, if the heat isn't gathered in time, the Fruit starts to rotten and the revival fails.

Another option when dumping heat in the Tool can be to specifically say who you want to donate for and then if the gathered heat is enough for one of the dead, the Fruit will work only for him/her.

If there is enough heat for all currently dead, I guess it won't be that much of a problem to revive them all with one overcharged and glowing Apple

Edited June 21, 2012 by Fire Starter

[DarkRaptor]

I think a ceremony should be necessary to sucessfully revival someone.

The ceremony could consist in at least 4 stages
1.Supply the Tree of Revival with enough resources to grow the fruit
The resources could be delivered by all interested players and the numbers could be something like:
1k water
250 fenths
2.Enchant the fruit with revival energy and identity
Once the fruit is grown (step 1), the resources and heat could be delivered by all interested players and the numbers could be something like:
5M Heat
250 Wiiya
3.Gathering the fruit
This action would only be possible if there were (for example) 30 people at the scene and used the grab action of the Tree of Revival ( something like the grab fugitive action..)
Important: the fruit would be gathered by the player that had supply the largest number of Resources ( not Heat )

4.Finally, use the fruit to deliver one drop of Juice of Life into the corpse.


note:
a) I've left out all the items because i feel this should be a community effort and should not be restricted to the presence of someone holding a special item or tool.
But in terms of RP would be very interesting to include such items and persons.
b) i think the needed time to gather all the resources is itself a good indicator Will from the community


darkraptor

[Phantom Orchid]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive]The 'uniqueness' of revival items should be taken into consideration when talking about Revival Fruit. [/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive]Even though I may disagree with how they are used (or not) presently, those items are special and meaningful for the persons holding them, and I acknowledge that. [/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive]But given that death can overtake and overwhelm a player's spirit, and they have no recourse unless it is part of a roleplay where some problem-solving must occur, or they have enough coin, I think that if enough players desire to put forth the effort (which, I would assume means there is enough of a consensus that it is deemed 'a good cause'), they should be returned to life.[/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive]This would also, I imagine, free up Council time from having to consider whether or not reviving someone is justified, in their eyes. Unless, of course, the stench of rotten wookie becomes too unbearable... [/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive]Having a mechanism that allows for a communal revival should take substantial effort (and I mean a *lot* of effort - it should be difficult to accomplish and require much cooperation). Death is highly symbolic and important, and it should maintain such a status. [/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive]Also, one limitation could be that revivals may only happen during certain times, perhaps on so-called Days of Tranquility. [/font]

Edited June 21, 2012 by Phantom Orchid

[Seigheart]

Chewett, I've gotten over 30 pms from players stating what I did was the right thing.

It's amazing how long it is taking the community to revive it's beloved Wookie.

Perhaps you aren't as well liked as I thought.

Perhaps I should have killed Grido, or Handy? O.o

[apophys]

I strongly recommend that a byproduct resource, the most appropriate of which is Syntropic Dust, is used in the recipe, because it requires at least 2 people cooperating to harvest any sizable amounts of it.


Also, I like the idea of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_apple"]golden apples[/url] being used to revive. (and no, this is not a link to the [url="http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Golden_Apple"]Minecraft golden apple[/url]. )

I have found a poem that seems like it can get your creative juices flowing here:
[center]
“ Though I am old with wandering
Through hollow lands and hilly lands,
I will find out where she has gone
And kiss her lips and take her hands;
And walk among long dappled grass,
And pluck till time and times are done
The silver apples of the moon,
The golden apples of the sun. "[/center]
[right]—[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._B._Yeats"]W. B. Yeats[/url], [i]The Wind Among the Reeds[/i][/right]



I propose that an ultimate revival consumable (ambrosia?) require as two of its ingredients an apple harvested during a Day of Tranquility on a 12th of a month and an apple harvested on a 24th of a month. The resulting consumable should be usable at any time, and should give an effect to someone not dead using it - 45 minute meditation on life, maybe?


Giving the tree X water could cause it to grow X/10 apples the next day. A basic apple should be edible with minor effects.

Edited June 21, 2012 by apophys

[Fyrd Argentus]

My efforts to create a revival item (wielded by me since I do trust myself) have morphed and merged with the general outcry from the community for a path to revival open to everyone, not just the rich.

I had thought I was making just one more of something that already existed 8x over, but if such importance is to be placed on my bodhran that ITC back-up is insufficient, then I will gladly allow my drum (or whatever key item we make) to become a "boomerang" item that keeps on returning -- but only if this can be set up to put the item into the hands of people we trust to use it, and not just sit on it.

Better yet -- make the cauldron item the permanently fixed-position apple tree in the community garden. Feed it with resources, and bingo, you're in business. Anybody.

As to how easy it will be to get revived, I fear we have just seen the tip of the iceberg in terms of deaths. If we only generate 4 revives a year, and we have even a half-dozen deaths, there will be competition for who gets the next revive. i think we will be seeing many, many "deaths" and will be needing strong medicine to counteract that.

p.s. I would guess Eon wanted a revive item so that he himself could not be killed permanently, wouldn't you suppose? He might have a hard time winning popular community support, eh? And could be a logical target for an assassin's knife....

[Udgard]

[quote name='Seigheart' timestamp='1340299973' post='115655']
Chewett, I've gotten over 30 pms from players stating what I did was the right thing.

It's amazing how long it is taking the community to revive it's beloved Wookie.

Perhaps you aren't as well liked as I thought.

Perhaps I should have killed Grido, or Handy? O.o
[/quote]
We know people liked you enough that they gathered to revive you.. perhaps a suicide is a good option?

[Rumi]

Thanks to everyone for contributing your ideas. I hope to you'll all contribute other new ideas, and elaborate on the ones you've mentioned.

It sounds to me like the consensus is moving toward a shared, stationary cauldron (Apple Tree), which creates a Revive Fruit (I, too, like the idea of a "Golden Apple"). Phantom Orchid has suggested she is willing to sacrifice her personal item (The Apple Branch) to the community to create this living cauldron.

I think Fyrd's concern about the volume of revival consumables is justified. If it takes massive amount of resources and energy to enact a revival, it would be a shame if we have to pick and choose who can be revived, until more resources can be gathered (at which time, there could be more dead). I think it's important that when the community puts energy into the Apple Tree, we can make it fruit in sufficient abundance to revive all the dead, and not be harvested to depletion before any can be revived. Again, I like the idea of the Apple going bad, and presenting some risk to those who would use such a magic. This would balance the necessary widespread availability of the item.

There should be some regularity to the Apple Tree's production, not a guaranteed revival period, but a reliable opportunity for the community to step in and help. As Apophys suggests, maybe the apples should have another use, and require charging through a heat-letting ritual to give them power over death. I also like the inclusion of tranquility days as part of the process. Do you all think that the elimination of heat buildup through dueling would have a positive or negative impact on the process?

I'd like to keep hearing ideas from you all, so we can develop this framework more fully. If possible, please try to keep the thread on topic. While the recent deaths helped to bring about this idea, we're working to develop a long-term solution for death and revival.

Keep it coming, folks.

[Tom Pouce]

Comments with the view point of a game player

Whatever the solution that is desing

- it will need to be implemented by Mur, or the Concil
The players by themself dont have the mean to implement it

- If you want to prevent futur quiting of players due to there death
The reviving of a dead character need to be simple, and sure to be done in a timely manner.

Me as a player , I would not find being dead fun, it would be equivalent of being banned ... how long i would tolerate being banned before quiting and going to play else where i dont know

But sure the quicker i would revive would raise the chances i would still be playing and not be gone.

So my sugestion, "keep it simple"

Edited June 24, 2012 by Tom Pouce

[Rumi]

Here's another thought - maybe a good one, maybe not

Do you all think there is value in having a very elaborate, detailed, difficult, communal, one-time ritual/process (involving massive amounts of heat and diverse resources) to have the Apple Tree created, and then the Golden Apples be fairly easy to come by and use?

Would this be so much different than Grido or Eon working hard or spending money to acquire such an item? Once they acquired their items, how difficult is it for them to activate them? The only difference is this shared stationary item would be owned by the community instead of an individual. Just like them, we would choose to use it as we see fit. Surely we as a community can come up with more money, resources, energy, Time, research, heat, etc. than any individual. Does the bar for use need to be set higher because of collective ownership/action?

[J-D]

It would be interesting if the people participating in the revival ritual overall were to give not just some resources, heat, time etc. to the ritual, but also a little bit of themselves (permanent vitality?). Perhaps in addition to heat the Apple Tree Branch needs some amount of permanent vitality to sprout and it could be gathered similarly to heat, if that's at all possible.

[Fyrd Argentus]

Right on Rumi!

Let's show a big effort now and ask for something easier to use in future.... I'm sure we'll get something harder to use than we ask for....

On the other hand, making the price of a golden revive apple a certain % of your permanent max VE would make people think twice about getting one. 10% as a ballpark straw man suggestion?

Edited June 25, 2012 by Fyrd Argentus

[Paracelsus]

I've sent a recipe to fyrd, for being used on his bodran, it consists in 18 steps and uses 9 resources, one of the resources needed for imput would be an apple or a revival fruit (the product of the apple tree) and the output would be a golden apple (an 1 use item with the capacity to revive the dead).

So the idea now is to have a one time use recipe to plant the apple tree branch?

If that is the case we'd need an item to work on i think (like a pot). MB people have an item called herbs box that coud help.

Now regarding the plantation of the tree i agree with rumi, it should be a big community effort to plant the tree in the desired location and then we should have to wait to get some fruit out of said tree. But if the fruit has the capacity to revive as it is, well reviving would be quite easy, maybe too much.

We should also think how to collect said fruit. An herbs basket will be enough? (i think so)

I've also read some suggestions of using big quant of resources in the recipes/rituals to grant a resurrection, and i really think thats not the best way, when you talk about quant of resources in cauldron items you're talking about fenths, as long as you have 1 of each ingredent, but enough fenths you have all you need, so you can put 50 wiiya as a requirement but with only 1 wiiya and 49 fenths is enough.

So i think the challenge should be to SOLVE the recipes, this is: the steps should not be published, it would be a kind of quest to revive someone and you would loose resources if you fail (and that should happend).

I think "guessing" the steps was Murs original idea, so you need the resources AND resolving the steps to finish the recipe.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Paracelsus

[Grido]

[quote name='Rumi' timestamp='1340638899' post='116010'] Does the bar for use need to be set higher because of collective ownership/action?[/quote]

Yes - and that's not me being greedy/such, though I'll still probably be neg repped again, even though I'm actually trying to help.

If you think about it, each person who is able to access it would have to pay the same/similar price as those that have the item - the work that I put in, split over 100 people, or the coins Eon spent split over the same, make the value next to nothing compared to what we did or paid. It is unfair to us that it should be valued so little compared to ours. And yes, it can still be unfair to us, even if we're not being angelic with using them.

[Rumi]

If you want to contribute toward a revival fruit recipe, now is a great time to offer suggestions.

As stated at the top of the thread, [b]strong contributions leading to implementation will be eligible for a wishpoint.[/b]


The basics:
Use the tea recipe as a model
Think about what your cauldron will be (The recipe I intend to contribute will use some kind of 'container garden' as a cauldron)
Feel free to use ideas that have been suggested already or start from scratch. Do not feel bound by the original suggested plan, but feel free to be inspired.
This will be a collaborative process and the final result will likely use elements from many contributions.

Thanks everyone!