About regen timers

[Muratus del Mur]

Now with all the extra sources of AP/maxAP increase, i was thinking about making a big gameplay change in the form of a small "change" ...

how about changing regen timers to something several times more? 

Before you go wild about this, let me explain

As they are now, AP are more then enough, there is no challange anymore in obtaining them. I don;t want to increase the AP limits on ap-locked locations, and i don't want to lower the amount is given out for free as bounties, or for consecutive days, or shop.

If regen would reset every x hours instead of y minutes, regen time will no longer be what gives you the ap you need, shifting focus on the other ways of obtaining such things, including on the items that can give you more actionpoints.

The timer set like this would also mean that people will not be able to be too active all the time, instead they will recover to full ap/ve and be able to spend all those during weekend, or when they are more available, making it more likely that will do out of this a regular routine

 

feedback is most welcome 

[Chewett]

How about situations where people are in several billion negative VP? A quick regen timer helps in these cases.

Would it force those really really active to become less active? Is that actually something this attempts to achieve?

[Muratus del Mur]

maybe billions in negative VP require some other sort of "fix", i don;t see it as a norma situation to consider when reasoning all other behaviour.

might bring the behaviour of "really really" active more close to that of those "less active".

 

If you think it, the ap needed for just being around is not affected, as you don;t need hundreds or thousands of ap to walk around. You need it just when you plan to do something that involves something special, like entering a place with high AP, or high viscosity. 

What i am trying to achive here, is to make the total ap loaded, an important event, not a casual one as it is now.

[Tissy]

Forgive me if I don't fully understand your changes recently. But from my point of view as an MP3 player, you're considering these changes from the perspective of a veteran player while make it even harder for new players. This is the second or third one I have that feeling. 

Every small obstacle you set for veterans, will make something for new players impossible. 

[Muratus del Mur]

many things do not require AP at all, so consider all the implications, good or bad

[Muratus del Mur]

Just now, yokin said:

Forgive me if I don't fully understand your changes recently. But from my point of view as an MP3 player, you're considering these changes from the perspective of a veteran player while make it even harder for new players. This is the second or third one I have that feeling. 

Every small obstacle you set for veterans, will make something for new players impossible. 

i am more than willing to NOT do that and learn from your experience. So far nobody complained so i can;t get an accurate picture of the situation.

Please pm me your exact concernes, and i will see what changes i added make it harder for new players. I am not aware of anything that should do that at this point, but i am sure your info will help me see things i currently don;t

[Aelis]

I think it won't make a big difference for us vets, since we've "seen it all", but it might severely impact the newcomers (due to lack of cartography and low ap limit). I remember being young and walking around relentlessly looking for any sign of activity around the realm (instead of sitting around in GGG where people would be silently attacking everyone else). 

 

As Tissy said, with every change, we must consider how the new players will be impacted. Most of us are past the point of needing game mechanics to keep us around MD. We're here for other reasons (and that might be your goal, I guess), but new players haven't reached that point yet. Imo we need to focus on their opinions.

[Zetsuei]

If timers did change, ypu'd have to change the mdshop items a little to balance it out. Though if something isn't broke don't fix it. In any event regarding the negative vp issue why not have value points be gained at an highly accelerated rate when a user is at negative vp and then return to normal values when its back to being positive?

[Steno]

Impacting the timer doesn't just change AP, it impacts vitality, and a bunch of other stuff (at least I thought so).

If impacting AP is the desire, what about a system that only targets AP? 

For someone like me, not quite a new player, but practically speaking a new player. 

After having 5 fights, I have to recharge my creatures, and now I'm out of vitality. Even after walking around, uness I've missed or forgotten something, my only option is shop items, bounties, regen timer, free credits, or an item (whichI don't have)

Impacting the regen timer has a lot of consequences, that are far reaching.

Are regen timers coded game-wide, or per player (based on when you logged in?)

If it is player-based. Let's test it with a clickie that changes the length of time. 

Zetsuei and I were running around Nevco with Dan when we realized Zet's timer was less than mine because he bought a shop item the decreased intervals. 

Maybe, make it MP-based, such as for each MP, the timer gets 1.2x longer

 

Edited February 29, 2020 by Steno

[Lazarus]

If the regen counter is to be changed, I think it should be localized to MP4's and up as MP3's mostly rely on the regen counter to heal/upgrade their creatures, it's not as much about the AP these days. There are ways for the VP to be regained if you know how to, relying on the counter itself to recover it would take a long time.

[Syrian]

there is more ways to get more max AP yes, however, if you increase the regen timer then you're going to push more need to increase the max ap and have people afk for hours or days just to go somewhere more expensive. there might be more ways to increase max, but is there *several* times more ways to increase it? overall this will nerf the amount of available AP over time which is going to heavily impact younger players. 

if the goal of MD is to have more to do and be more exciting for new player's, this has the opposite effect i feel, it'll slow down their movement a lot.  

and also what use would having high max ap be if it takes you ages to actually make use of it?  i think the timer's are fine, i voted to keep them the same 

 

Edited February 29, 2020 by Syrian

[Zetsuei]

On another rnote entirely...is anoyone even passed 2k ap right now?

[Steno]

Chew is. probably other players who have been active for a long time.

[Fang Archbane]

Im 1,728 days old today, and im looking at a 447 AP max currently.

The issue here wont be one for me, or people like me. Two points i feel i should make public come to mind.

1) Death is an extreme. In the Dead we only get a once a day, 24 hour regen timer, and we make do just fine. Honestly, this doesnt sound like an issue, just a shift in mechanics and a shift in mechs means a shift in perception if were to adapt and move forward. 

2) There is potential for MP6&7 to take this hypothetical change to extremes. If we get massive regen timers and we have the knowledge & resources we need to accrue massive temporary stats, when we lose no AP to traveling if we meet the minimum criteria... well it sounds like a lot of fun and testing to me, but it could get messy, thats all im saying.

 

[Tissy]

I like the idea to be active after a long wait (no more than 1 day) to make that active time more effective. But it requires a lot of corresponding changes to the whole mechanism. 

And actually for a game it's better to have the players to be active more frequently, to form the habit and make more chances for social, which help the game to attract more players. I think the purpose of bounty is the same. But prolong the regen time will do the opposite. 

I'm always worrying about the attractiveness of the game to new players. The less new players retain, the less interesting the game is for them. New blood is crucial for the long run. This great game should be seen and liked by more players. But things are better easier for them to experience more. 

Edited February 29, 2020 by yokin

[Syrian]

4 minutes ago, yokin said:

I like the idea to be active after a long wait (no more than 1 day) to make that active time more effective. But it requires a lot of corresponding changes to the whole mechanism.

this wouldn't be fair to people who can't leave a computer logged in, but are active in small bursts throughout the day. potentially an arguement could be mad for having it scale with consecutive login's, up to a point, because you don't want to punish people for having a net failure and not being able to make it. i still think keeping it as-is is better 

[Tissy]

2 minutes ago, Syrian said:

this wouldn't be fair to people who can't leave a computer logged in, but are active in small bursts throughout the day. potentially an arguement could be mad for having it scale with consecutive login's, up to a point, because you don't want to punish people for having a net failure and not being able to make it. i still think keeping it as-is is better 

yep. I just think it would help for concentrating on personal staff out of the game. But it's not feasible for a game. 

[Ungod]

Pro: AP will not be meaningless (I think it wasn't that meaningless anyway, but those boots...:D) and you'd have to think about it more carefully

Con: if you end up having to plan everything (maybe even having to count AP by the unit), it becomes a pain and not fun at all

Pro: it will 'force' (stimulate?) cooperation between a low AP player and a high AP player

Con: it will reduce the possibility of exploration of a new player

In view of this, I just though of something: why not add a few more teleport_to spells in the WP shop?

Pro: it will make things harder to obtain (it's a pro, because many things which should not be cheap will not be cheap anymore)

Con: it will make things harder to obtain (which is bad in the case of, say, training crits...suddenly, it's not so easy to farm them, but even if in theory this stimulates competition and divides real grinders from average players, it's hard for a new player to even consider grinding when you have so many people with high stats)

I voted for the change, but now that I think about it, I'm not sure it's good. If it gets pushed, though, it'll be interesting.

[Mallos]

Hard no from me, I can give two examples from today that this change would be very negative for.

I'm collecting these heads from the bounties, and then giving them to someone else. Every time I want to transfer heads to a player it takes all of your AP to do so, I have to wait until my regen to be able to move and collect more. If the regen is much longer then I will just have to stop playing and come back tomorrow, no thanks on that I am having fun now.

I'm heading towards Golemus but because I have low AP from gifting my heads, I need more to be able to enter the gates. Looking towards the boots in MDP I notice they are gone, ok, looking towards the boots at Necro gates I notice they are gone... Ok, so I think I will have to wait for regen, and I decide to go through the labyrinth as opposed to Golemus gates since the labyrinth option is much lighter on the AP meaning I will get there faster. If the regen interval is much longer, there is no getting there faster, this AP cost is similar since again I have to wait on the longer regeneration for AP either way, where a quicker regeneration interval allows me to take different AP cost/time options.

This brings me to my final point, I noticed that the boots at Necro were simply in a different spot, and I used them to enter through Golemus gates. If we have a longer regen interval this is just more heavily focusing on the use of these action points boost than we already are. My suggestion is simply remove those boots, they were fun for a time but there is little -need- for them, and they circumvent preexisting AP restrictions that once were meaningful.

Another suggestion, maybe make more AP checks that take all of your AP if you want AP to be meaningful, we have so much now that even a 400 ap cost is just a setback rather than a defeat. Taking all of the AP to do something will force players to wait a bit more often.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Mallos

[Syrian]

4 hours ago, Mallos said:

This brings me to my final point, I noticed that the boots at Necro were simply in a different spot, and I used them to enter through Golemus gates. If we have a longer regen interval this is just more heavily focusing on the use of these action points boost than we already are. My suggestion is simply remove those boots, they were fun for a time but there is little -need- for them, and they circumvent preexisting AP restrictions that once were meaningful.

 

i dislike these boots also. but i also like how NC is to travel, with it/s staging and need to do multiple steps to get through. it could be possible to still have these heat steps but place them on the arrows themselves rather than using heat to charge the AP shoes, what do people think about that?

[Mallos]

To clarify I just mean to remove the boots outside of Necrovion, as in MPD/Necro gates/meeting of the roads puzzle, the free AP boosts that can be easily taken advantage of. Maybe if removing them is not the best option, give them a cost to use like the boots inside Necro have.

I think the movement style of using the boots inside Necro is just fine and you need to use the AP they give you in order to get out, generally disallowing use of the AP outside of Necro anyways. Tying the ap boost to the arrows might make it too prohibitive of which direction to move or require too many heat checks, although it is not a bad idea if done right.

[Muratus del Mur]

@Zetsuei Having x000 ap is not a purpose, its more of a backdoor to ap locked places. Before you have x000 ap to enter a place you should find boots that give you x0000 and plan how to use those within the timer.

Steno had an idea that i like, how about changing just the ap regeneration and make it slower? I still think the timers are too fast as they are, but maybe increase them just to 15 or 30min? 

 

Based on your votes but most of all on your comments, i consider this poll as a NO.

 

This poll also convinced me that i need to do some internal use statistics to see the averages for values based on the general population, because me, chew or vets are not a good example of how things are...not at all.

 

I think the max achievable ap for general population is around 150-250ap

 

[Aia del Mana]

Presently, as I do observe, there are some issues both conceptually, and in terms of balance.

Presently, it appears that Action-Points, or as I had suggested it be renamed, "Willpower", were the only numeric resource where one may simply refresh of these by clicking upon some boots. As these did grant to most points above the maximum, one could consider that the maximum Willpower should be inconsequential as long as these were in existence and one did possess of a regeneration interval long enough that one could go whithersoever one did please without regard to one's maximum value.

If one were to restore of value to the maximum Willpower/Action-Points that one should attempt to achieve, there could be consideration for the following, which all achieve value in increasing the maximum, although by different methodology:

1. Removal of the boots that do grant of these points in excess, or at least a cost to use the boots, such as heating of them in Necrovion; or mayhap, that the accessible (i.e. presently Non-Necrovian) boots should grant a number which were well below the usual maximum (e.g. boots that would set AP to 100 - this would retain of purpose, but also grant value to the maximum)

2. Recoding of AP such that one cannot exceed one's maximum - making the maximum AP the limit to increase; this would require consideration of recoding many values within the realm so that they should eventually be accessible

3. Regeneration should restore one's AP entirely or in proportion rather than a fixed numeric value (thus, increasing AP would increase the number regenerated per interval)

4. AP maximum should have some other purpose in addition to that which were presently so (thus, the value of AP maximum would be dependent on the value of this additional purpose). An example for this would be that wearing armour/iwielding weapons would decrease the AP maximum when equipped - conceptually, this could be considered that one's willpower were less when one were wearing of heavier armour, given it's burdensome nature; removing of these would restore of the lost willpower maximum.

As for the regeneration interval:

If one's regeneration interval should restore of AP to maximum, then it may be reasonable to also increase the interval, either proportionally or otherwise, depending on the presence of other sources of AP (such as the aforementioned boots). It doth appear that the advantage of a long interval were in the presence of sources that would grant points (of vitality or AP or otherwise) above one's maximum, whereas if these were not present, then there would be an advantage in a more brief interval. This were a careful balance, but it doth not make conceptual sense that one should be able to hold of greater willpower for a longer duration if one merely takes longer to recoup of't.


In summary:
AP, and consequently, maximum AP, were essentially free presently; that which were free to all and in abundance shall hold of little or no value in exchange; this must change. It may be reasonable to balance the regeneration interval around such a change.

[jakubhi]

I agree with Aia, the idea with maximum AP sounds pretty good.

Would it be possible to set the purpose of the boots in front of Necro gates only for  entering Necro? I mean player would still pay the price for their activation (probably heat), but change them  from AP booster to Necro teleport. Maybe set some other minimal requitments. But without boots it would be impossible to enter Necro for most of the players, because 1000+ AP is a little bit too much, or so I think.

[Steno]

2 hours ago, Muratus del Mur said:

This poll also convinced me that i need to do some internal use statistics to see the averages for values based on the general population, because me, chew or vets are not a good example of how things are...not at all.

 

Yes. Data is your friend. While many of the veteran players do not like the boots because they cheapened a resource that used to be hard to maintain, and thus more value. As a newer player (who still has a really high max AP, I still ran out of it several times. In the very beginning, you basically could explore 1 new land a day, even then, not all of it. The costs was too high, so most players would fight the first 30 min, explore for 30/45 (which taking notes), and then find someone to sit and talk with while they stored AP to make it to a sanctuary.--> times have changed. Having a long-term data analysis tool built in to monitor player actions and aggregate that data will help in the long run.

And Mur, I think the obvious way would be to delineate between your different MP classes to see their stats. But as Chew and I have discussed before some of the  "ancient"-as he calls them accounts, have really high values in some areas, and really low in others. I think that players like myself with this conundrum, might be useful to treat as outliers when performing this analysis. 

1 hour ago, Aia del Mana said:

1. Removal of the boots that do grant of these points in excess, or at least a cost to use the boots, such as heating of them in Necrovion; or mayhap, that the accessible (i.e. presently Non-Necrovian) boots should grant a number which were well below the usual maximum (e.g. boots that would set AP to 100 - this would retain of purpose, but also grant value to the maximum)

2. Recoding of AP such that one cannot exceed one's maximum - making the maximum AP the limit to increase; this would require consideration of recoding many values within the realm so that they should eventually be accessible

3. Regeneration should restore one's AP entirely or in proportion rather than a fixed numeric value (thus, increasing AP would increase the number regenerated per interval)

4. AP maximum should have some other purpose in addition to that which were presently so (thus, the value of AP maximum would be dependent on the value of this additional purpose). An example for this would be that wearing armour/iwielding weapons would decrease the AP maximum when equipped - conceptually, this could be considered that one's willpower were less when one were wearing of heavier armour, given it's burdensome nature; removing of these would restore of the lost willpower maximum.

 

Aia, I agree with all of your points except for number 2. Not only would number 2 I think take a lot of work (and yet again, as you state, have far-reaching consequences that I don't think we can truly predict), I think it would be a response in magnitude greater than required. Not only would shop items have to change, so would other items, other interactions, bounties, etc. Instead of point 2, I think point 1 can be expanded, the number, or frequency  of items that boost AP in general (for free or not is another discussion, however entangled with this one) should be evaluated so that going above maximum AP is harder to do.

 

If going over maximum AP would no longer allowed, then we would have to place an AP booster on GWI just to teach players not to waste (let's say a twice daily AP booster of +50) an AP booster, since it can't go above their AP max. Which would work, just something else to have to consider, not just for mainlaind, but for Island.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Steno
further thoughts