The MP4 Problem

[Chewett]

@Muratus del Mur feedback is welcome.

Speaking to some of the lower Mindpowers there is a distinct problem with MP4 currently. There are not too many MP4 players around and this limits fighting and other things that people do with their same Mindpower. Many people rush to MP4 so they have some more players to play with, but then get stuck there for a while attempting to farm enough to progress.

I think this is a big problem currently and I am not sure about a good solution.

Originally I was thinking we move back to the old system where all mindpowers could attack others. But then maybe add some kind of "Negative" when a higher MP attacks a lower one.

I feel we need to resolve this to keep our newer players, and if we don't we will lose them.  If anyone has any opinions or ideas please post them below. What do you think Mur?

[Ungod]

I believe the problem is that mp4 is designed as 'transitory par excellence'; of course there would be few to none mp4s when you have either some achievements or 'god' status at mp3 and then all the creatures and everything else at mp5.

To have a couple perma mp4, I think some advantages must be given for staying at this stage longer, such as a 'secret' creature level for one or two crits that is available only at mp4 (making it so that some people would enjoy a sort of combat superiority) or a bonus to ve farming, or maybe one or two spells that are available only to mp4s. Nothing major, but something that gives mp4 more time, time that would be spent on battle, exploration or even collecting resources.

[Steno]

As I was telling Chewett, there might be multiple approaches to this:

1), giving some players costumes for MP4>> this would result in people being able to hide frpm MP5s, especially damaging if during a heads contest

2) Change how honor works, slightly>> for each negative  (read MP5 attack MP3=-2) difference, the negative honor is multiplied by 1.2, so an MP5 attacking an MP3, with initial honour of -100 is now -100x1.44=-144. For attacking UP an MP, the formula remains the same, except for possibly MP6, or even MP7.

3) Change cooldown timer. Again, I vouch for a variable approach, such as instead of attacking someone and have a 3 minute cooldown, if an MP5 attacks an MP3, then it is 3 minutesx1.5x1.5 =6.75 minutes of cooldown. (Where each negative level of MP adds a multiplier of 1.5 to the 3 minutes).  This could solve the problem, but to be honest would require a more strict modifier. Because chances are an MP5 attacking an MP3 would wipe out any rituals and crits that they have.

 

4) a Complete overall of honor, to compensate for being able to attack anyone, with honor impacting more than just it does now (being a requirement for more shop items, possibly for more creature evolutions, even having negative honor for certain creature evolutions)>> I don't like this approach, but I thought that I would put it out there all the same.

 

Last point, any attempted fixes for this "problem" only impact appiex, NatasQ, and the few others I've seen, and newer Mp3s. It is a symptom of the problem of a less-than varied playerbase. Thus, it should be only implemented as a temporary treatment until the symptom goes away, not something that changes the whole patient. We should, if any action is taken, set a time limit to this bandaid, such as, until the next anniversary, or, we start a heads content and we do a pilot test of our approach just during the heads contest.

 

Also, I am still MP4, I have been for awhile. Thus, if any approach like ungod's is taken, then I should be exempt from such bonuses as I started this conversation. Also, if reward-based approach is taken, MP5's should be given the choice if they want to return to MP4 to re-try for the achievements.

--> Though as a temporary fix, I plan on making an alt and leaving it at MP4, for this reason

Edited March 1, 2020 by Steno
Further thoughts-and ungod's post

[Chewett]

7 minutes ago, Ungod said:

I believe the problem is that mp4 is designed as 'transitory par excellence';

I disagree, in the past we had (more players in MD) and a decent number at mp3 and mp4. The problem is purely now a top heavy issue of old players but fewer new ones causing issues playing at those mindpowers.

[Ungod]

It could be as you say, but what exactly are the perks of staying mp4 and not rushing to mp5?

I remember, when finally deciding to advance from mp3 4-5 years ago, I, too, wanted to explore more of what mp4 offers. And there were only a few mp4s, so I asked Tal, after one or two months, to cap me. I wanted a 'steady' progression, but I found mp4 wasn't offering much, perhaps due to the lack of people at that mindpower.

For mp3, if I remember correctly, fighting is very easy, and you can enjoy pummeling with some vicious ritual with (tokened) imps, jokers, pimps etc It's a 'carefree state', although you're not capable of doing much (or as much). That's a perk in itself. 

For mp4, it's only interesting as long as you have companions, isn't it? Perhaps I'm not aware of some options?

[Muratus del Mur]

this is a problem caused by the current situation, not by an overall unbalance. Given enough people, this wouldn;t be a problem, so whatever we could do to "fix" this, must consider also what would happen with enough players.

 

I think the npc fighting i am planning next could solve a bit of this problem..i might be wrong, we shall see.

We could allow just mp4 to be able to repeat noc chained fights at some interval maybe?

 

[Steno]

Agreed. NPCs would fix this problem, also I think having more NPCs would keep newer players interested, especially if they have a varied text response structure. 

15 minutes ago, Muratus del Mur said:

We could allow just mp4 to be able to repeat noc chained fights at some interval maybe?

Could you explain this? I don't know if you meant NPC or some other acronym I don't know about.

[Muratus del Mur]

sorry, i meant NPC.

yes, and if we "fix" anything else right now, it might be a chaos after npc release.

With the new tools to implement npc fights, and new art on the way, i think it will be a big event that will influence this a lot..so better think if this is still an issue after this event.

[Mallos]

If we have enough NPCs so that any mp4 could farm them to gain sufficient heat to advance this is at least a bandaid fix to the wider problem being that there is not enough players that stay as mp4. In my experience most players will go to mp5 rather quickly, while a select few will stay mp3 for a long time or forever. Very few will stay as mp4 for great lengths of time. In the past this was not too big an issue, the playerbase was large enough to suit the demand of the few mp4s but many years now there has been no mp4s at all, likely the main reason we need so many mp7s now.

I have suggested before to allow players to decrease their mind power. Again, I would use this to go mp4 and stay there, I could be one of the few active mp4s. Although with the win/loss ratio I maintain to stay in statdamage, I would not even be much help to these mp4s as they will quickly accrue -500 honor and be unable to fight.

Honor was by far one of the most harmful effects to mp4s, most of the fresh mp3s would come with many greater losses than wins meaning you always had to have more losses when you went mp4, or be stuck managing your honor until you could get to mp5. Perhaps if honor is not to be removed as a concept entirely, make it not affect mp4s in particular.

[Mallos]

4 hours ago, Ungod said:

It could be as you say, but what exactly are the perks of staying mp4 and not rushing to mp5?

The perks are a more succinct combat system, fewer creature choices and fewer stats on those who you could fight. Once you go mp5 these go wildly out of control (I'm looking at you drachorns)

[Aia del Mana]

I feel a simple solution would be the possibility of being able to attack up, but not down, a mind-power; this in itself would solve the issue of insufficient targets, and also incentivise one to remain at a lower mind-power.

To clarify, MP3 could attack all others, MP4 could attack MP4 and 5, and MP5 could only attack MP5.

One of a lower mind-power may learn from those above her in the same if she so chooses, but were not subject to it. In addition, this would have implications for heads-contests and the like.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Aia del Mana

[Steno]

13 minutes ago, Aia del Mana said:

I feel a simple solution would be the possibility of being able to attack up, but not down, a mind-power; this in itself would solve the issue of insufficient targets, and also incentivise one to remain at a lower mind-power. One of a lower mind-power may learn from those above her in the same if she so chooses, but were not subject to it. In addition, this would have implications for heads-contests and the like.

Why would I ever want to change then? Why would I even want to get to MP6? or 7?

Being able to be attack, but not be attacked does not seem very fair to me.

[Aia del Mana]

One could be forced to ascend by the cap of heat, or by the incentive of being able to upgrade of creatures which require a higher mind-power to ascend, as were presently the case.

MP6 and 7 are not thus far included in this suggestion, but I am sure it would be reasonable to allow different interactions; MP7 may already attack and be attacked by all, and MP6 will have protector spells; mayhap these will need to be scaled to each Mind-Power that they protect.

These Mind-Power levels already possess of their own incentives to ascend to them.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Aia del Mana

[Ungod]

6 hours ago, Mallos said:

The perks are a more succinct combat system, fewer creature choices and fewer stats on those who you could fight. Once you go mp5 these go wildly out of control (I'm looking at you drachorns)

I know, this is what I meant by 'steady progression' in my reply. But it didn't work in my case and it's not working without enough players. Meanwhile, mp3 has some advantages of its own; the mp4 status is somewhere in the middle, with not much attention given...or so I see it. 
What I was suggesting was incentivizing some people to stay at mp4 longer and this way there'd always be some mp4 around, but seeing Chewett's and Mur's reply, I think they are against making it 'special'. I get it, there's a danger there.

[Syrian]

you could introduce a temporary alliance maybe, that unallied peoqple can click to join in a fake alliance for a short time for the sake of combat with higher mind powers 

[Steno]

 I  asked myself this question and want to pose it to all here because I didn't have a good answer for it.

A lot of the ideas on this 'problem' have focused on change of game structure, mechanics, etc. These are changes to the world of MD.

If this were any other "game" this would be where I'd start to look for solutions, in fact, it IS where I started to look. BUT, this isn't just any other game, it is MD. So I asked myself "What would be the possible solutions Steno, (the character, and not me-masquerading as Steno), in game would come-up with to solve this problem?"

So I ask those of you concerned with this topic: How would your character work on this issue? How would/will your character resolve this?

For now, despite Steno's great desire to reach MP5, (since that is what he was working on before his hibernation), he shall remain at MP4, contemplating what he can do about this issue.

[jakubhi]

Dont forget about asquiffy (not sure if this is main or alt account) but he has 2800+ active days and is still MP4  

 

[Mallos]

On 3/1/2020 at 11:20 AM, Chewett said:

Originally I was thinking we move back to the old system where all mindpowers could attack others. But then maybe add some kind of "Negative" when a higher MP attacks a lower one.

If this was the case, it could be that when a higher mind power level attacks a lower mindpower level they are only able to use 0% slider. Even more, you could make it that their tokens have no affect on the battle. Both of these compensate for their relatively higher stats and higher level creatures.

Those two alone are not exactly enough to even the playing field though. You could even consider making it so any creatures that the lower mp level player could not use in the fight due to level restrictions are frozen for the higher mp level player.

It is so easy to gloss over what the dev thinks to make our own suggestions >.<

Edited December 25, 2020 by Mallos

[Tissy]

Don’t forget the MP3s. Too many limitation barriers and too few peers. 

[Jubaris]

This is an important issue. I liked several suggestions here, the solution I think, is an amalgam of your propositions:

- Allow cross mind power fighting

- Attacking higher mind power big honor benefit

- Attacking lower mind power huge honor loss (thus encouraging people giving wins to lower MPs) 

- Cap the heat given in such cross mind power fights (so someone doesn't overflow newbies) 

- (?) Possibly handicap higher mind power player in stats, token, creature freezes, in a gradual way (mp6 vs mp5 no issues, mp5 vs mp4 smaller issue, mp5 vs mp3 huge issue) 

[Fyrd Argentus]

A few suggestions:

1) Give MP4 attacking upwards some big advantage like -- random defense rituals for the MP5+ with zero vitality.

2a) Only let MP3's go to MP4 in groups/classes, then graduate to MP5 as a group.  If the group withers on the vine, the ones left might slide back to MP3. 

2b) Perhaps have an assigned/volunteer leader to guide the group -- sort of a cross between alliance & den mother.  These "teachers" might have special abilities to help them train the MP4's like pulled punches and extra first aid.

3) Recruit people to run MP4 alts part time, like you do LHO's etc.  Make it a badge of honor, with perks and tools. 

[Kaya]

I'm somewhat facing this problem myself, having almost made it through MP3. Even in MP3 this problem exists I've only seen a handful of MP3s, and most of them were either alts or long term MP3s.

In many games I've played new players are protected from old players until they attack them. So make it impossible for higher MPs to attack lower MPs, but if a lower MP attacks a higher MP, the higher MP player will be able to fight back for a set amount of time.

Another option is to play by the rules of the defender. So if a MP 5 attacks an MP4 all their creatures above MP3 restrictions will be frozen. The other way round, however, the MP5 is allowed to use whatever they want to defend.

[Pipstickz]

7 hours ago, Kaya said:

In many games I've played new players are protected from old players until they attack them. So make it impossible for higher MPs to attack lower MPs, but if a lower MP attacks a higher MP, the higher MP player will be able to fight back for a set amount of time.

I think this is an elegant solution, if there's no significant reason to bar disparate MP interaction

[Chewett]

One of the things to consider that that with the wrong ritual a MP3 can be capped to MP5 without attaining the various other requirements. Certainly when we had one MP7 "helping" out newbies they regularly capped them accidentally :S 

Certainly some of these ideas have merit though and I will investigate them once we know what combat is going to be like.

[Miq]

Well heat transfer of those extra mp fights can be also capped. For example mp3 can never get more than 5k heat from mp4 or 5.