[quote name='Lifeline' timestamp='1290629509' post='73097']
i dont know if my english just sucks or if people dont read clearly. i said in my first sentence of my last post that this isnt about if i am guilty or not. i wouldnt have teleported everybody out if i thought i wasnt guilty. and mur i told u in an email as well that i know that i am guilty. i just didnt know that i committed something that was a crime but after talking to akasha i realized that it indeed was one.[/quote]
Frankly yes your English sucks. The way I read the above is that you don't debate that you are not guilty and then immediately add reasons why you are not guilty or did not know you were doing something wrong (which is different from not being guilty but I doubt everybody is keeping track of that distinction). Your words sometimes seem to defend the first and sometimes the second position. Consequently people sometimes attack the first or the second or both. If you admit guilt and state that being uninformed is solely to be taken into account for determining the extent of the punishment, people should stop pleading against the first position.
[quote]
and as for punishment there exists 3 types of punishments: temporary ones, permanent ones and irrecoverable ones. looking at almost all punishments given they are almost all temporary (jail, stat reduction, curses, warnings, ect). a punishment that is both permanent and irrecoverable (meaning the punished thing wont ever be gained back) happens only for the worst crimes i saw so far.[/quote]
There's two possible theses which can be argued. Either your punishment is too heavy or other people's punishments are too light. These are not equivalent theses! If you argue the latter, I will agree, if you argue the former I will not. If you wish to argue that they are equivalent, I personally do not believe there truly is such a thing as 'fair'; there is only an intent to make things fair according to ones own norms and perceptions of such a concept. It is my belief that Mur acknowledges this too.

As for lack of punishment on frequent crimes... I don't think those crimes are often reported, which makes for one huge difference with your crime. I personally am not wanting to raise trouble by picking on each and every small alt abuse I notice or every spoiler etc. I would make a stance if I consistently saw the same person doing small crimes, but I rarely look for these things and instead stumble upon them accidentally. Perhaps we have need of an inquisition; a group of people who commit themselves to looking for any and all crimes and which is not part of the 'council'. They could sum up all the petty crimes that we as individuals loose track off. But there will never be a guarantee that group will not turn a blind eye to some people. Those people can still be researched by others, but unless someone either has a reason to suspect them and/or dislikes them enough to keep track, the general populace will assume they are clean because the inquisition isn't stalking them.

[quote name='Kafuuka' timestamp='1290638292' post='73121']
Perhaps we have need of an inquisition;
[/quote]
[size="6"][font="Arial Black"]
No one expects the SI Inquisition[/font][/size]
[size="1"](You all know you wanted to say it)[/size]

yes small crimes, even if still crimes, can be ignored. It allows flexibility in a world that would otherwise permit punishing of all crimes. If i wanted cave entirely unavailable i would have removed it, instead i closed it, an left one person with access, that means in an unofficial way "shut up and be quite if you enter". what happened? first people go wild giving drachs and brag about it. Second, this incident, where a large amount of people were about to migrate there.

"Abusing" is an art, one you don't master. It will never avoid official rules or be acceptable by an impartial decision power such as the council, but it will be considered by a subjective decision power such as myself. I consider myself "just" when taking decisions in md, even if not "by the book". This was such a decision, thats why i asked council to take an objective decision, one that might have escaped me, and i am counting on their full honesty to take one.

Why to lie you... i CAN take that spell away if i want to, just so...but its a matter of justice about what the reason is. Also depending on the reason, i might excahnge it for something more appropriate to your role and less dangerous, or just remove it. I am ready to learn something from this myself, however you are obviously not, and that in a subjective justice translates "Next time my decisions will be more careless and severe". Its not at all a threat, its an example of how subjective justice works, because afterall, also you are following subjective reasons but hide behind excuses pretending to be objective.

Imagine i would have told you chase spell is to be removed anyway, yet allowed it as a punishment reason for you, as an undeclared... favor. Kind of sorry you didnt took my punishment now? Well i look forward to see how a fair punishment looks like, since you so vehemently demanded one. I might even postpone chase spell removal if needed, so i won't be THAT cruel to you in case council decided in favor of keeping your spell. But consider what i said..in general at least...

I will agree with Lifeline on this one. Several people got punished that shouldn't have been. I'm glad someone like Lifeline is a king and went through the trouble of pulling up the announcements as well as the one forum post that said anything about the drachorn caves functions. Mur called ignorance upon me for not knowing, but seriously, how am i supposed to know out of a forum post? If it's not ingame then it holds no bearing to me.

Everyone knows I was inactive for a long time. I did read the announcements, and I didn't think I saw anything new about me or about my access. I did send a pm to Mur asking about me still having access to the cave, but never got a response. It becomes a crime for me to play the game normally and the way I was taught by the great Mur himself. I am sure as most ex-RPC's know what I did is what I was taught to do ingame to have fun and collaberate with groups of people. To raise attention and have fun.

Each RPC was given it's own power and the goal wasn't for each RPC to keep their power to itself, but to collaberate with other RPC's and make unique quests between the powers they had. What I did was no different. I took a power that I had and collaberated with someone about it to make a unique situation. Was it harmful to anybody? no. Was it harmful to the game? no. So i'm being charged cause Mur ignored my pm and left me access to the cave and i used it? There is nothing to gain out of people being in there, so it's not abuse. The only way it can be abused is if someone hacks, which can happen anyways outside of the cave as I have heard.

So the cave itself serves no special function other than nobody can enter the cave but me. But nowhere in the announcements does it say that nobody is allowed. I would move to stricken the forum post as a fact cause it should have been an announcement. Thats like saying "Accursed Growth is closed explicitly, regardless if you have access to it or not." If you say that in the forum how many people that dont regularly read the forum are going to be accused of a crime that they didn't know existed? It's not an area that most can enter, but some can. Furthermore, there are people that got punished for no reason whatsoever.

MasterB is indeed one of them. I want to know what "investigation" led to that conclusion. He had nothing to with it, and left right after being transported in. What was his crime? What did he do himself to be a criminal? Manda's only crime was posting in the mood panel but she suffered a worse fate than the people that planned it. I can bring evidence as well to support against the people wrongly accused, seeing how I am the one that orchestrated the whole thing. But I wasn't even questioned about it really. Charging people falsely seems to be a trend in the realm.

Just cause people dont like something doesn't make it a forbidden. If 99 people agree on a rule being set and one person doesn't like that rule then that rule is not made. If one person makes a rule and everyone else disagrees with it it's still a rule. That sounds like nonsense but it is indeed true.

Edited November 25, 201015 yr by smartalekrj

[quote name='smartalekrj' timestamp='1290722831' post='73252']
MasterB is indeed one of them. I want to know what "investigation" led to that conclusion. He had nothing to with it, and left right after being transported in. What was his crime? What did he do himself to be a criminal? Manda's only crime was posting in the mood panel but she suffered a worse fate than the people that planned it. I can bring evidence as well to support against the people wrongly accused, seeing how I am the one that orchestrated the whole thing. But I wasn't even questioned about it really. Charging people falsely seems to be a trend in the realm.
[/quote]
MasterB is free, as I've said previously. Manda had a previous problem with the drach lair, and was punished for not learning from last time than posting in the mood panel; the mood panel post was simply evidence.

Also, Manda is a he, not a she.

[spoiler][quote name='smartalekrj' timestamp='1290722831' post='73252']
I will agree with Lifeline on this one. Several people got punished that shouldn't have been. I'm glad someone like Lifeline is a king and went through the trouble of pulling up the announcements as well as the one forum post that said anything about the drachorn caves functions. Mur called ignorance upon me for not knowing, but seriously, how am i supposed to know out of a forum post? If it's not ingame then it holds no bearing to me.

Everyone knows I was inactive for a long time. I did read the announcements, and I didn't think I saw anything new about me or about my access. I did send a pm to Mur asking about me still having access to the cave, but never got a response. It becomes a crime for me to play the game normally and the way I was taught by the great Mur himself. I am sure as most ex-RPC's know what I did is what I was taught to do ingame to have fun and collaberate with groups of people. To raise attention and have fun.

Each RPC was given it's own power and the goal wasn't for each RPC to keep their power to itself, but to collaberate with other RPC's and make unique quests between the powers they had. What I did was no different. I took a power that I had and collaberated with someone about it to make a unique situation. Was it harmful to anybody? no. Was it harmful to the game? no. So i'm being charged cause Mur ignored my pm and left me access to the cave and i used it? There is nothing to gain out of people being in there, so it's not abuse. The only way it can be abused is if someone hacks, which can happen anyways outside of the cave as I have heard.

So the cave itself serves no special function other than nobody can enter the cave but me. But nowhere in the announcements does it say that nobody is allowed. I would move to stricken the forum post as a fact cause it should have been an announcement. Thats like saying "Accursed Growth is closed explicitly, regardless if you have access to it or not." If you say that in the forum how many people that dont regularly read the forum are going to be accused of a crime that they didn't know existed? It's not an area that most can enter, but some can. Furthermore, there are people that got punished for no reason whatsoever.

MasterB is indeed one of them. I want to know what "investigation" led to that conclusion. He had nothing to with it, and left right after being transported in. What was his crime? What did he do himself to be a criminal? Manda's only crime was posting in the mood panel but she suffered a worse fate than the people that planned it. I can bring evidence as well to support against the people wrongly accused, seeing how I am the one that orchestrated the whole thing. But I wasn't even questioned about it really. Charging people falsely seems to be a trend in the realm.

Just cause people dont like something doesn't make it a forbidden. If 99 people agree on a rule being set and one person doesn't like that rule then that rule is not made. If one person makes a rule and everyone else disagrees with it it's still a rule. That sounds like nonsense but it is indeed true.
[/quote][/spoiler]

I think the main problem is not exactly you letting somebody in to the cave but the transpiring events and the person you let in.
For starters the drake cave is and should remain exclusive property of GG and not lightly given privilege to other lands or neutrals (I was not there don't investigate what I say and think of it as an admission of guilt) such as myself. The second problem though I believe you have no connection too is lifelines decision to allow people to enter.

Personally I have no problem with what you did RJ. The events that transpired however are a different monster all together. I wonder how the council is going to deliberate this (personally I think there might be a partial but not complete pardon granting lifeline a little bit of something back but not everything). Anyways that's my take on all this so far.

Wait for my inevitable change in my opinion if somebody else makes an arguable point.

17) GG Drach cave really belong to GG?
Iam taking a similar Case comparing vatican city and italy with cave and GG.
a)" City of the Vatican", is a landlocked city-state whose territory consists of a walled enclave within the city of Rome, the capital city of Italy.
"Drach cave" is similar to it vatican city. Even thou it is within the territory of GG but has its boundary of itself.
"Vatican city" It has an area of approximately 44 hectares (110 acres)
"Drach cave" has one one screen area (no idea how to measure area in MD)
"Vatican city have a population of just over 800.
"Drach cave" has one population and that is MD Char SmartalekRJ. The only player who can enter the cave.
b)"Vatican City State" issues normal passports and its Own visa. Italy isn't the one issue the passports nor the visa for vatican city.
Its true in MD, "GG paper pass" does not provide u an access to the cave.
c) "Vatican City" is ruled by the Bishop of Rome—the Pope. it is also and the location of the Pope's residence, referred to as the Apostolic Palace.
"In MD " the residence of the Smartalekrj is in the Cave itself. And even GG king have no access to the cave = no authority over the cave, which means Smartalerj is the one who in charge of the Cave. In fact he founded the cave in the first place.
d) "The military defence" of the Vatican City is provided by Italy and its armed forces, given the fact that Vatican City is an enclave within the Italian Republic. Accordingly, Vatican City has no armed force of its own apart from the Swiss Guard.
"In MD" its true again. Its the GG Citizens who r bound to protect the cave.
Points to note from above is
drag cave thou falls within GG territory but SmartalekRJ has more authority than GG King in regard with the cave.
The fact that King of MD allowed SmartaleKrj access to the cave and not any GG citizen is a proof in itself.
Therefore Lord lifeline on the permission of SmartRJ did used his spell to bring MP5 players for training purpose only.
It was therefore considered that GG king permission wasn't required.

18) Now i will take the previous two case study where players have been punished or warned in the past regarding the cave:
Case 1
[quote][2009-04-18 20:36:34 - Alpha 8]
Drachorn Eggs sacrifice day..not for Easter Eggs
Because of excessive amounts of drachorns when usual reward is 1 maximum 2, several measures have been taken against following players: Caster masc (aka tankfans) killed 7 drachorns eggs (all), .MRD. killed 10 drachorns eggs (all) , PTB killed 5 drachorns eggs (all), .Grido. killed 11 drachorn eggs. A few players were left with over 5 drachorns because of their role and because those drachorns are expected to be used as rewards for other players. .SmartalekRJ., the drachorn master, lost his ability to give access to the Drachorns Lair. Access to the Lair was removed from all characters except .SmaralekRJ. . Access to the Lair and recruiting of just one, was a matter of trust, but it seems some considered it as a great opportunity to get too many rare creatures. Distribution of drachorns in the realm will be increased later when they will become again very rare (more than now). Those penalised should be happy that the penalisation was not higher.
[/quote]

a) As u can clearly see, The punishment was given for distributing or taking more than 5 dragons for personal use.
b) The punishment was not given for entering the cave as it wasn't closed that time [b]but also not open to all[/b].
c) Since its the first kind of a crime or let say abuse the penalty was not higher. Only temp punishment, Not permanent one.
d) But still SmarRJ was allowed in the cave.

Case 2
[quote]
[b]you took 16 drachs ang gifted [/b]just a few to bfh, and to one other guy that happend to be at the cave entrance. You sent one to ailith to confirm you can access the cave, she sent it back.
you had 11 drachs on you when i locked you. i confiscated all 16 drachs.
i have no clue how you got that admin key to enter all those locations (they are all closed by same key). One thing is certain, you did not struggle to much to find out yourself and you tottaly abused the drach cave. you will do jail for abuse by ignorance. You are very lucky i stopped you before you SOLD any because then you would have been ip baned forever.
bfh, you have no excuse, you as a lho should know better and not allow this to happen without checking with grido or me. [b]If you think its normal to get drachs from the cave then you have no place as a lho.[/b] you will do jail for your ignorance and [b]for receiving those drachs without reporting [/b]something odd was going on when everybody knows the cave is locked.
i will decide an other time your jail time but it will be long. your accounts remain locked untill then.
this should be a lesson to lho that they are responsable for the advices that they give , if those advices lead to abuse be neglijence or intent.[/quote]
This was the post made by the king of MD in regard with manda's case.

a) again u can see that Manda was primarily punished for taking and gifting dragons and not for entering the cave as such.

In the both the cases the payers were punished mainly cos of taking dragon and not for entering alone
Points to note from above:
1) Lord lifeline did make sure that recruiting of drogans not possible before bringing other players inside the cave
2) In this case none of the players did not or where not able to recruit the dragons
3) They entered the cave since they left with no other options for a safer training place as balcony was attacked by Anti GGG force.
4) Secrecy of the location of the training was most important and thus Lord lifeline kept this training as a secret due to GG king wasn't informed.


19) In giving Verdits the past crime of the players should be know
In this case Lord lifeline have never abused his powers before and has a clean record throughout his game play.

20) Why punishments given
a) Of repeating the same crime or mistakes even after waring:
well here no one has rpt the crime excerpt of Manda and no warnings was issued to lord life line before his punishments
b) Why the crime was made:
In this case it is clearing for training purpose only and not as claimed for invasion of gg. Did they tried to enter the cave when they were MP3 or MP4? and also this location was chosen only when they left with no other place to safly train.
c) Nature of the crime :
Entering the restricted area but also we have see did they gain anthing by doing so?. They didn't.
d) So that in the future no one repeats the crime again:
As this can't be applicable since the last announcement reads "[2010-11-22 03:26:41 - Stage 10]
[b]Drach Lair access restriction rule will be lifted as soon as the cave becomes technically a prison[/b]. This means it will no longer be forbidden to be inside, but it will be theoretically impossible. (This leaves space for certain things)"

Well thats all, I kindly request the council members to go through the above points in the topic and request temporary punishments along with warnings as applicable to Lord life line and others involved in this trail Thanks
Others might consider this trial as a joke but i have full faith in them.

[quote]17) GG Drach cave really belong to GG? [/quote]
i would declare your brain as a separate state with a will of its own , not in relation with you or what you type, that would be your only excuse for such a nonsense. Do you even read what you're posting ? but just for the sake of it
Drach Lair is located in Golemus.
Drachorns are Golemians creatures.
Please don;t come with examples form states inside states like Vatican cause it;s not the case here . The lair has no authonomy on it;s own nor a different king or rules
All Golemias protect Golemus that includes the Cave.

[quote]The fact that King of MD allowed SmartaleKrj access to the cave and not any GG citizen is a proof in itself.[/quote]
RJ has access to the cave but no authority on it. Rj was given access by a higher authority than the King befire there was even a King in this realm. RJ has stepped down by it;s own will from his role meaning he no longer had any if non authority on that place before the incident. RJ had no right in granting Lifeline the use of the spell. Lifeline did it willingly. The King is authority is required when performing actions in a different land , especially in closed for public places , as a higher authority

[quote] b) The punishment was not given for entering the cave as it wasn't closed that time but also not open to all.[/quote]
As far as i know in any trial it's investigate the major offence. For example if you are investigated for murder you are going to be investigate for that even though you have break an entry in order to do it.

[quote]1) Lord lifeline did make sure that recruiting of drogans not possible before bringing other players inside the cave[/quote] Oh really?> and how did he do that ? please explain. he didn't read the forum before entering how could he know that drachorn are not recruitable after the manda incident ?

[quote]3) They entered the cave since they left with no other options for a safer training place as balcony was attacked by Anti GGG force.[/quote]

i supose that Anti GGG force is dst but since GGG is no longer oficial , it is not protected by any laws thus they hided without a reason since they could train anywhere



Drachorn Lair belongs to Golemus, not only belongs but it;s sacred for it.

@alekrj
It's interesting that you both are unaware of past events and able to spot trends.

@Tipu
MD is not real life. While comparisons and analogies are interesting, in this case I fail to see why I should not dismiss them with those words. If MD were real life, and we know that Manu is the creator of MD, then I am forced to refer to the countless mythologies about deities who destroy countries and kill millions of people just because they are bored.
[quote name='Tipu' timestamp='1290793614' post='73330']
3) They entered the cave since they left with no other options for a safer training place as balcony was attacked by Anti GGG force.
4) Secrecy of the location of the training was most important and thus Lord lifeline kept this training as a secret due to GG king wasn't informed.
<...>
c) Nature of the crime :
Entering the restricted area but also we have see did they gain anthing by doing so?. They didn't.
[/quote]
Once again, motives are of low importance. Especially in this case it is annoying people keep referring to 'boogeymen' who 'forced' the perpetrators into their crime. There always are alternatives. Similarly whether anything was gained is irrelevant to the establishment of guilt. Breaking and entering into a poor man's house and noticing there is nothing to steal is still a crime. Not one that pays well or is worth the risk, but a crime nonetheless.
As for referring to other crimes and their punishments. This is afaik the first reported crime of this type and hence the reference to prior cases is void. References to different cases and their low punishments can either be interpreted as those crimes not being punished enough or this crime to be punished too severe or as this crime being a more serious crime. Most people would agree that most crimes so far have not been punished severely at all. Very few will say that this crime is being punished too much an sich. I hardly doubt there is any consensus on the severity of this crime. To infer that this crime is being punished too hard, is not as easy as you think. People have been set free sooner or later than the proposed date or let out for the holidays and various sorts of things. ie punishments have not always been carried out to the letter.

Also, I think alekjr did find the cave while the tiny people found it. Not certain if that was a typo or intentional.

@ Tipu: I feel like Peter from Family guy when he found out his property wasn't on american soil. lol

@ Kafuuka: Not quite sure what you mean... Can you elaborate a bit? I am aware of some past events, though some things were "hidden" from me even when i had direct control of people coming in and out of the cave. This was an issue form the beginning. I have made several postings to Mur about that and other RPC's can verify because I was deeply concerned about the issue of people taking more than one drac. I found out only when the announcements were posted about that incident.Not before, and not from a message from mur. People choose to abuse things on their own. I did struggle for Mur to find a different way to handle the DracHorn Cave, but pretty much it was "this is what you have so deal with it" I will mention Shoeps as one of the many that i have shown my concern with about the previous bugs with the cave itself. But as for the "bugs" of the drachorn cave, they were fixed permanently(according to Mur) and should not be relevant to this matter.

There are many different levels of authority associated with MagicDuel.

Mur as creator can impose his will via coding. He should deal with issues of bug exploitation, spillage outside the game (dst vs. fenrir) and anything else that circumvents or is "above" the game system. His alone should be the power of the permanent ban. The rule that we may do anything technically possible (unless it is a bug) should be absolute. Mur should not be in a position of judging actions that occured within the scope of the game.

The Kings and the courts etc. should be dealing with issues of conduct and convention. They should punish in-game for things that occur in-game. Mur should not need to be involved in issues of civil conduct and culture. The whole "GGG" fiasco is in this realm - community projects, community enforced, destroyed by in-game action.

So what happened with the Drach cave? There was a bug (Manda), a bad job was made of fixing it (RJ still had the keys) and Mur made announcements in which I think he meant to say that any method of entering the cave should be considered a bug -- but given that keys still existed, this is somewhat debatable. It was in Mur's power to "turn off" that scene, but he did not -- why? Why try to rely on just announcements? So Lifeline's argument leads to what is still technically possible is allowed.

The issues of violating territory and relations between kings -- this is what the game is made of, and Mur and the council should never be involved in that aspect of the game. This is where the role of the King should be in its full glory. Mur should not be dealing with people's reverance for a holy site, nor expecting a King to hold his values for such a site, in-game.

If you want Kings to act like Kings, then you have to support Lifeline's right to do whatever he wants to in-game, and to play the game to its technical limit. Tyrant, patron, despot, visionary -- that's his call. The only reason Mur should be involved in this would be if Lifeline were accused of bug exploitation. So, the only question that should be put is whether Lifeline is to be punished for interpreting Mur's verbal announcements in a way Mur did not expect.

Fyrd, you are getting this very wrong. I didn't interfered with King decisions or gg king reactions regarding this matter. What yrth decided/s or what Lifeines plans were in regard to GG is not my business, its theres. I acted to enforce a set rule, something none of them can do on their own. It has nothing to do with a bug or recruiting of drachs. You are mixing different things in one.

I don't really care if you think closing the cave makes any sense or not , for you, it is irrelevant for this particular event. If anyone questions the meaning of a rule it doesn't mean the rule can be broken just so.

MD is not equivalent to RL but a certain thing in RL might help you understand this better... Lets take for example a "free" country...by "free" it is not implied you can go to a shop and rob it just because you can do anything you want. Free means eventually people can vote against a rule, change leadership to fit their needs, etc, BUT THEY FOLLOW RULES. MD is a dictatorship if you ask me (Murship actually), this means rules are to be respected not debated and certain characters like ME or KINGS have the official right not to respect the rules under them. it is a dictatorship because i am not replaceable and I (or now the council too) take decisions without public votes. This is the only way things can be controlled in a useful way, to keep meanings, depth and social dynamics needed. Otherwise MD would be just a bunch of people that copy outside world and learn nothing out of it.

@those involved:
I , Mur, am PART of the dynamics of the game world, you should stop whining about it when it doesn't favor you. If you really really want to cry about something, do it when you are not affected by it, i might listen. Bending things so you fall on your feet from an incident such as this one is something that annoys me greatly.

@Mur Directly: I have pleaded to you before about the situation involving the cave in general before there was commotion about it. You know I could care less either way about the present circumstance with me. You chose to inflict others with my decision just to "prove" your point about me. Is that fair really? I have come to you about things that i knew were going to cause a problem in the past before they became a problem. But. they still happened because you wanted to "watch" and see how things would pan out. I am not doubting your curiousity in the nature of human thoughts by any means. I am asking that you clarify the real problem though now that it has affected other people for no apparent reason.

@Fyrd: That is a great GENERAL statement. I think thats the point thats being missing inbetween all this "political" views

Edited November 28, 201015 yr by smartalekrj

in your pms you asked me irrelevant things, things that were announced already. I do not plan to reply to things just for casual talk. I have hundreds of unread messages and i try to pick just those that really need an answer. Your status and access level was announced publicly, and i am sick of this theater play of you or the others involved hiding behind ridiculous excuses for sonething that didnt ended up as they hoped for. I never have the intention to help you avoid trouble, that is and will always be your task. I am also not putting deceiving announcements, so i don't like it when you see only what comforts you more.

You can compare me to a judge, you don't go to a JUDGE if you have unclarities about a law, but the judge applies it still. Next time avoid lying to yourself by pretending my rules are not well announced or not well expressed, because it wont help you in any way. It might help you in front of a jury, or an assigned judge, but not in front of me.

It amuses me, and saddens me that some of you ruined their image in my eyes for NOTHING. It is not relevant for this particular punishment anymore but I am bad at forgetting things like these. Masterb for example, if you only kept your mouth and didnt pretended with such "innocence" nothing is wrong. Lifeline, thank you for making it clear for me how your value system works (note the irony in case that is ambigous too). Smart...

enough said

[quote]It amuses me, and saddens me that some of you ruined their image in my eyes for NOTHING.[/quote]

Isn't that what I have been saying? There was nothing involved, no exploitation of anything. If I was bugged you should have fixed me. I know I sent you those messages alot(hence how I lost mp1 status eventually) Its not like I can fix myself if I am bugged. And it's not like I knew I was bugged to begin with. You may be a "Judge" but you are also the person that knows your own rules. And if sending you a pm saying "hey I still have access to the cave, am I supposed to?" is too much for you to have an answer for then i'm supposed to pretend it doesn't exist. Do other people have to deal with the same problem? Or am I the only one that has access to an area on the map that nobody should have? Cause if i'm the only one then it should've been easy on you to fix in the first place... Or at least respond.

I would like to suggest you guys drop it before Mir looses his cool, and does something horribly sinister to you.

Mur when he does lose his cool will often step back from the situation for a few hours before making a decision in order to make a fair decision. However the decision is not in his hands. Messaging mur about a bug is irrelevant as it was not a bug it was clearly explained in the announcement that you still had that power. Also the law being as it is I believe its quite clear. The only reason that it is not written clearer is because then it would have to be written in legal language which about half the people would not understand. Let me translate the drachorn layer is closed exceot to smartaclec JR into legal language. "The 1st party has restricted entrance to all 2nd party executives excluding player name smartalec JR who may select 2nd party executives to enter the cave. Upon entering the party you become a 3rd party executive. Under no cercomstances should the 3rd party invite a 2nd party executive into the drakhorn cave."

Ok in legal terms Smartalec JR you are free to go. However Lifeline would be found guilty by inviting the 2nd party executive. Sry if I have negativly attacked you in the past on this issue smartalec. Things just make more sense to me in legal language then they do in words. Though I think few people would see that the same way.

@ Mur:
I dont know what you mean but I had a native englishspeaker translate the whole thing for me into proper english so it should be more understandable now. I hope the staff understands what I really mean. When I talked to you my english was bad and you didnt understand at all what this case was about and it seems like you still dont.
Speaking of value system: Whatever you mean by irony or that sentence I lost the only 2 things in this situation I value to begin with (and I am not speaking about the kingship penality point). If I make such a huge "theatre" about "ridiculous excuses" after two years of playing, being a king, and no history of crime or rebellion, isnt that completely out of character?

@smart:
[quote]"hey I still have access to the cave, am I supposed to?"[/quote]

Read the fucking announcements, it sais there precisely. If i will spell them for you , each letter will hurt.


@Lifeline:
[quote]isnt that completely out of character? [/quote]

your deed was not, your reaction IS. And i am most upset on you playing all on one card than disregarding rules hoping you will get away with it.
It is very out of character but people start doing stupid things when they stop caring, and exactly that is your problem here. You flipped a coin.
Don't play the bad-englsh card with me. Look at how Tipu speaks, thats bad english, i don't understand a word, and that is fine, he still tries... but you know enough english to understand eachother.


LE: think of this, I am avery subjective, yet fair, judge. Is what got you where you are. Is what kept your access and tag smart, even when it was supposed to be removed, is what got you in the story lifeline and what made me decide to mix two announcements into one when punishing you, in your advantage. But its time for some things to change it seems.

Posting the results here in case someone misses the in-game announcements.
[quote name='Announcement']
Four days have passed, Council has decided:

Lifeline: The chase spell will not be given back. It is an Administrative spell and Lifeline has shown how it can be abused. The council has decided to remove it from all
who do not have an administrative role. In exchange those who lose the chase spell will receive a Wishpoint as compensation. We do not consider the removal
of the spell as punishment. It is just a precaution messure.
All Lifelines GG Drachorns will be reset to eggs (Level 1,0 wins, 0xp, 0 age) as a punishment for desecrating the lair.Existing tokens and other customizations will not be touched.
1 Kingship point will be deducted from Lifeline because his ignorance and lack of interest towards the games rules.
SmartAlekRJ: All RJ's Drachorns will suffer the same punishment as Lifelines's.
RJ remains trapped in the Lair for 1 Month.

Seigheart: Will have 2 weeks in Jail for his disregard of the rules and willingness to break them.

Manda: GG Drach will be confiscated due to this being the second offence relating to this matter. Will have 2 weeks in Jail.

*MasterB*: Will have 2 weeks in Jail and removal of citizenship, with the possibility of being accepted back anytime if GG king decides so.

All the other players: Since most of the other players were brought to the cave unknowingly, and did not take part in planning and organising this, they will be spared this time.
However, Since MdM asked us to consider only lifeline's complaint only his punishment will be changed. This would have been the initial decision taken if indeed MdM had not stepped in.
[/quote]

Sorry Lord lifeline i failed in defending u. I did my best research in this case and even brought vatican city out here uhhm forgive me lord.

Thanks for the king of MD and the council members for taking their time and effort in going through this trail again for Lord lifeline.

[quote name='Tipu' timestamp='1291048880' post='73698']
Sorry Lord lifeline i failed in defending u. I did my best research in this case and even brought vatican city out here uhhm forgive me lord.

Thanks for the king of MD and the council members for taking their time and effort in going through this trail again for Lord lifeline.
[/quote]

Personally i feel you probably made the issue worse with your continual posts without knowing the issue well enough. Im sure lifeline can easily defend himself well enough.

[quote name='Chewett' timestamp='1291053064' post='73705']
Personally i feel you probably made the issue worse with your continual posts without knowing the issue well enough. Im sure lifeline can easily defend himself well enough.
[/quote]
That's a bit harsh.
1. If Lifeline thought/thinks this way too he should have asked to refrain from attempting to help before the verdict. If he does not think so, then it is not up to us to blame Tipu.
2. Tipu is not the only one in this tread that sided with the people who got punished. Several others tried to defend themselves and/or Lifeline and complicated the discussion. The worst arguments were not Tipu's.
3. The council should not base their results on the words of Tipu or anyone except for Lifeline, otherwise they leave themselves vulnerable to the straw hat man strategy.

[quote name='Kafuuka' timestamp='1291054563' post='73707']
That's a bit harsh.1. If Lifeline thought/thinks this way too he should have asked to refrain from attempting to help before the verdict. If he does not think so, then it is not up to us to blame Tipu.2. Tipu is not the only one in this tread that sided with the people who got punished. Several others tried to defend themselves and/or Lifeline and complicated the discussion. The worst arguments were not Tipu's.3. The council should not base their results on the words of Tipu or anyone except for Lifeline, otherwise they leave themselves vulnerable to the straw hat man strategy.
[/quote]

Bit harsh? Yeah i agree, Im feeling happy today.

If indeed they do just base their desision on Lifelines words surely then they end up limiting their results to someone who is trying to get out of punishment? Logically you take into account any views or reasons that seem most sensible, Even if indeed they are not lifelines.

on the "straw hat man strategy" wtf is this? google shows nothing yet you have used it several times around this forum.

A straw hat man is a person who is hired by party A and is purposefully 'defending' the thesis of the opposition B as poor as possible. To the unaware observer, it will look like the straw hat man belongs to party B and that B has horrible arguments, whereas thesis A looks sound.

ie, whenever a poor argument is made by someone, there are two possibilities: either that person is bad at debating, or that person is loosing on purpose. Therefore it makes more sense to only look at valid arguments and not take into account invalid ones. (In logic there is no reason to take into account disproved arguments either, but decisions are seldom 100% based on logic.)

The same tactic could have theoretically been applied both by and against Lifeline. I'm positive that the council is able to formulate their own arguments and that Lifeline had a more direct debate with them, not taking place in this thread. The questions and arguments posed here could have served as inspiration for either party, but imo only their own words actually used in their private debate should matter if one wishes to avoid deliberate interferences.