[quote name='Lifeline' timestamp='1290541584' post='72944']
so all i am doing here is asking for a warning instead a punishment. a warning that still results into a kingship penality point for me but nothing else especially for the people i teleported.
[/quote]

@ mur: this is not against MD itself it is against how rules and laws are not existant but players get punished. for how this particular punishment and case was handled.


[quote name='Chewett' timestamp='1290543457' post='72946']
@ Life
You can thank Shadowseeker for that


My personal opinion is that one thing you wont get is chase spell back. Its rather abusable as you can jump to *nearly* anyone. I remember when we had RPC meetings and such, it was relateivly hard to make sure people didnt jump to leader and chase you...
[/quote]

hmm guess i didnt see that in the edit options then will have to check again.
chase spell is abusable yes but did i ever do that? did i jump into a rpc meeting? no. i didnt even jump into AL or KC mission or anything. and in fact if i understand mur correctly i didnt even abuse the spell in this very case because the crime was getting more than 2 or 3 people inside the lair.


[quote name='Muratus del Mur' timestamp='1290549532' post='72949']
do you think we can discuss king matter while all flambated like this? I need kings decision on a new MB guild...but it can wait if you wish.
[/quote]

yes we can. please dont misunderstand me i am not attacking u or MD here and i do have respect for u and the game. i just question a decision u made which i believe is unjust and unfitting.

You want to know how making a fight club in MB and putting up a poster in MB is different from a fight club in the drachorn cave?
It's because of all the other facts concerning the GG drachorn cave.
How is this not clear?

You say that we didn't ask either before doing anything at all inside MB.
I give to you now, that it was obvious that not only the drachorn cave was closed because of the possible abuse, but that it was actually [i]closed[/i].

Marind Bell, especially the places where Burns was active, is not only a completely [i]open and public[/i] place, but also a place for newbies and a place for [i]learning[/i].
By your logic, you should also have issue with all neutral institutions as well, as you seem to make no distinction about intent and proper usage of any action on any territory, regardless of it's designation.
By your logic, the dojo should be removed as well, because no one at the dojo ever asked you to open it in the first place, by your logic, not only burns' recruitment poster, but also any and every kind of quest script on any kind of script item should be cleansed if they do not have your permission as well, because it furthers the desires and cause of individual players, much like a recruitment poster would further the desires and cause of an alliance.
Not only that, according to your logic, you would have every person ask your permission, before they are allowed to try and get more adepts in MB.

There is a reason why we felt insulted by your intrusion into the GG drachorn cave, and there is a reason why there is no real inherent intrusion in such actions in MB lands.

As I stated earlier, there are many reasons why you should not have gone into the GG drachorn cave; it was closed, explicitly and implicitly, simply because of the fact of being there would allow for an enormous abuse.
The reason why we did not ask for your permission for our actions in MB, is because it was done in open territory, which has an extra special designated characteristic of teaching and helping newbies.

By your logic, we would have felt insulted if you set up a fight club in [i]public[/i] golemus lands. We would not have, though we would have kindly asked you to leave it, much like you did with Burns' recruitment poster and fight club.

You fail to make important distinctions.

Edited November 23, 201015 yr by Metal Bunny

i have a question maybe someone here can answer. now lifeline used a spell of his how it was intended to move people from one place to another. dst uses a spell of hers to see others chats. now why is one wrong (lifelines) while dst is fine? everyone argued on her behalf that she could use that spell in any manner, seems that's the same thing lifeline did.

now you can argue that he went to a place that was closed, but can't one also argue that if it was truly closed then the spell shouldn't of brought anyone there? just like how dst can see talk in any location why is that fine? why isn't places she can't see? isn't this an invasion of higher morals to each kingdom? since this topic seems to be moving more so from actually having a GGG to invading kingdoms i am lost how this works.

i don't know much about spells or this so that's why i am asking here because it does seem relevant to me.

You need to be in the same location as the chat you want to pull with the chatlog spell.

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1290560121' post='72964']
You need to be in the same location as the chat you want to pull with the chatlog spell.
[/quote]

that still don't answer how it isn't an intrusion on kingdoms? or the one about using spells how they were made? like i say i am more or so interested how that double standard works here? i think she isn't a king or queen?? but still she can use that spell any place she goes. since she is part of underground?? using it outside of underground isn't an intrusion?

also where you not the one who had said in a prior topic about that drach cave, the punishment was only for taking a drach out of it not for being there? which is exactly what i think everyone who was involved thought. if a spot is closed so you can't remove something from it, then the thing you can remove from it is removed, don't this negate the reason it was closed in the first place??

The point is:

Lifeline used his spells [or that's what it seems like, correct me if I am wrong] to bring people into the Drach Lair, which was obviously closed off from any entry.

The Intrusion, and otherwise desecration of the lair and inevitably, GG, comes from the fact that Lifeline and said company used a fighting club in an important part of GG, which has high potential of abuse. To make it easier to understand, the Drach Lair is to GG as Marind's Balcony or Angien's Shrine is to Marind Bell. The fact that they used the Lair for unintended means is offensive.

Also, the fact that the Drachorns have been removed does NOT bypass the fact that they intentially bypassed a rule that Mur had made about the Drachorn Lair. This is a breach of the rules, and thus is a punishable offense, even if one or two say they were ignorant of such a thing in the first place.

The first paragraph has been stated already, and if by now you still do not understand, read up and I am sure what Metal Bunny has said would be in better terms.

[quote name='pipster' timestamp='1290563660' post='72969']
that still don't answer how it isn't an intrusion on kingdoms? or the one about using spells how they were made? like i say i am more or so interested how that double standard works here? i think she isn't a king or queen?? but still she can use that spell any place she goes. since she is part of underground?? using it outside of underground isn't an intrusion?
[/quote]
Anyone with the spell can do that. dst is accountable for what she does with it. The problem is not in which land it was used, but in which location. The fact that it was done in a restricted location in a different land makes it worse.

Edited November 24, 201015 yr by Rendril

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' timestamp='1290549532' post='72949']
About new king, in case we reach that point, there is no benefit in picking a council member as one, imagine how hard it will be to penalize him in case its needed.
[/quote]

the wires are a little crossed. Lifeline refers to Marind's Bell Ruling council ([url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/8262-organizational-structure-of-marind-bell/"]Marind Bell Organisation[/url]) Whereas you refere to "The" council that supposedly runs MD.

I doubt Chase will be given back because although you havent abused (up until now if you call that an abuse) then it has been in the past and will be in the future.

What worries me is that you are gamberling everything you have in MD, For a spell and one King point? Im worried thats all MD is worth to you?

can u people please stop going offtopic and stop making this trial about something completely different?
this trial is not about if i, RJ, ect are guilty or not! this trial is about how we got heavely punished for something that was never even mentioned as crime in the rules or restrictions. in fact the rules and restrictions actually support every action taken. we could have chosen several different locations but we chose the drach lair because we thought it was allowed. and once again mur said the crime wasnt entering, the crime was getting a bunch of people inside which isnt even stated on the forums. this trial is about how an act that isnt anywhere ingame defined as crime was punished insanely heavy instead of a warning along with a normal punishment. just look at the punishment history of not just drach lair involved incidents but many others. committed crimes that were stated as crimes in the rules where offenders got a much lighter punishment in almost any case. masterb even left the lair right away but still got punished. in my opinion a completely innocent person got prisoned for something which he wasnt responsible for and even wasnt stated as crime anywhere. this incident was handled unjust in my point of view.

so once again: [b]THIS TRIAL IS ABOUT INSANLY HEAVY PUNISHMENT FOR AN ACT THAT ISNT ANYWHERE DEFINED AS CRIME (getting several people inside drach lair/closed location) BUT ON THE CONTRARY IS EVEN SUPPORTED IN THE OFFICIAL RULES.[/b]

EDIT: @ chew:
thanks for clarifying what council i ment.
as for the chase spell: many spells and items are abusable but they are still around. how about my jailing item? that is hugely abusable and one king will surely abuse it one day in the future.
what MD is worth to me? besides the 74$ unused credits i still have on my account and lots of other things, i already said above how i value stuff in life. its what my very name stands for.

Edited November 24, 201015 yr by Lifeline

Insanely heavy punishment?
Are you kidding me? You lost a spell and a king point. Do you consider that heavy? Omg....I'm speechless.

And do you really think you can play the "innocent" I did not know, I don't read the forum , I hate the forum part to get away with it?

@Lifeline : Be happy with what you got, if i had the Little RED button i would have pressed it already : Twice! ( only my personal opinion)

You are a "great player" so the punishment should be accordingly to your status. You are King with big responsabilities you should feel their burden( as all the other Kings) so quit whining and accept your punishment gracefuly.

Edited November 24, 201015 yr by Indyra

a) MasterB is out of jail
b) You are technically allowed to make alts for credits, would you be yelling "THIS IS SUPPORTED BY GAME RULES" if you'd done that?
c) Insanely heavily? In RJ's case: Say someone asks you for citizenship of MB, if you left for a couple months and came back (assuming you remain king), would you not re-evaluate them, or would you just give them the citizenship? (In this metaphor, king of MB represents RJ's role, giving citizenship represents taking people to the drach cave, etc.).
MasterB and Seigheart are both free at this moment.
This is Manda's second offense relating to the cave, if he didn't learn last time, how is that anyone's fault but his own?
So, to sum it up, RJ either didn't know about his role or didn't care about it and Manda didn't learn from last time he got in the cave.
And that leaves you, Lifeline. You are a king, and you should at least try to know what's going on in the community at any given time. The best way to do this is probably the forums, and the second best would be socializing, and you do neither very regularly, if my memory is correct. Again, how is it anybody's fault but your own?

By the way, direct quotes from chatlog (with other things removed, [url="http://storenow.net/my/?f=2440"]full log[/url] courtesy of dst):
[18/11/10 06:44] Grido:my questioning would be as to weather Mur said, as i recall,that people weren't meant to go there?
[18/11/10 06:44] Grido:particularly since i got an alt banned because it was sitting in there
[18/11/10 06:45] Grido:pretty certain people aren't allowed to go there
[18/11/10 06:45] Grido:still, Drach Lair is out of bounds last i checked
[18/11/10 06:46] Grido:Because as i recall, Mur madea point of blocking it
[18/11/10 06:47] Grido:like i said, an alt of mine got banned for just sitting in there
[18/11/10 06:48] Grido:because i'm 95% certain an email is going to hit them telling them people are inside Drach Lair soon

[18/11/10 06:53] Seigheart:Grido, I'll take my chances at the lair. It's a risk I an willing to take.

Grido mentioned MULTIPLE times lair wasn't allowed, Seigheart went ahead with it anyways.

Edited November 24, 201015 yr by Pipstickz

[quote]@ Tipu
thank u very much for the support i am really touched but please think about it very clearly. u now have a clear mission to carry out, how i handle this situation is my way of living so please dont rush into something u might regret.
[/quote]
I understood u want to take on ur own shoulders and iam on my mission lord.
The supreme duty of every Citizen is to defend his King and iam only doing my duties so no need any thanks lord. Well iam posting few more points hope this helps u in ur trial.

11) Spoiler is again an offense in MD right? But how come u can have Alts then, Ok let me explain this
Lets take two scenario:
First
a)Lets say player 'A' Join MD and plays for 200 active days
b)Player 'B' joins in
c)Player 'A' gives all the spoilers of MD to player 'B'
Player 'A' gets punished cos he has given all info which he knows to player 'B' and thats spoiler.ok
Second
a)Player 'A' joins MD and plays for 200 active days
b)Then player 'A' creates his Alt player 'A1'. Now player 'A1' knows everything what player 'A' knows(how to solve bresker puzzle, How to beat LR guards, knows which ritual to be used to increase certain stats and many more it goes on)
My point what difference it make btw player 'B' and 'A1'. Cos now player 'A1' becomes legal. Even thought all the spoilers or fact are shared btw player A and A1 but thats legal????
Now if i had the RED button i would have used it and removed all the alts from the system just one account per IP address. . Now how fare is my decision for those who have really worked hard to bring there alts up.
My point is different people interpolate rules and systems in different way i just took one example about 'spoiler'. So player will have different option about rules closed or restricted means.

12) About alche statue " the reason why that statue is build because he discovered MDA lands long before it was official opened. Any one who sees that statue will be under the impression that going to the places that can't be access is a great Achievement to do. The place that is not official opened is an restricted area or a closed area. if so why the statue then. If that is called adventure where is Manda's statue near the cave in fact it should be two

13) If training with the Libs is against the rule then how about players using the armors in GG during HC contest. I mean every one knows that they r steeling head from the armor (why steeling - most of them don't have creatures left for fighting, so basically u click them u get their heads). No action is taken to prevent that and non punished. I know why.. it is just cos' VETS can't participate in HC. Imagine DST is allowed in participating in HC and u try to steel heads from the armor u will no doubt will end up counting the bar behind prison hehe ( Sorry DST to put ur name there).

14) Who has more authority ...
A MD char or a King . I belive A MD char since he have done good or bad thing for the entire MD realm and not just a part of land. On that text what Lord Lifeline did is correct to my view.

15) When MB and GG was still in taking period about the whole incident, why did the announcement pointed about the gravity about a King not concern about the other land territory. King of GG already punished lifeline in that regard "MB citizens will be attacked in GG territory". And it should be decided between the two king. The punishment should only be given for entering the cave and not for trespassing the territory that remains with GG king.

16) Some say that Lord life line was trying to take over GG. ho yes he is trying to take over GG with some fresh mp5 players who r struggling to find a Win. And remember even GG citizens where included in that group. So this can considered as a joke .

lord I have few more points but no time today. thanks

ok you discuss details and concepts, but please let me get this clear:

[quote]THIS TRIAL IS ABOUT INSANLY HEAVY PUNISHMENT FOR AN ACT THAT ISNT ANYWHERE DEFINED AS CRIME (getting several people inside drach lair/closed location) BUT ON THE CONTRARY IS EVEN SUPPORTED IN THE OFFICIAL RULES.[/quote]


- so you claim by this trial that what you did , or the entire event, is NOT A CRIME
- you consider a king penalty and a spell removal "INSANLY HEAVY PUNISHMENT"

Maybe according to your judging of what is wrong and right i should congratulate you for what happen?
Sorry the irony but ...

Please state what is according to you an acceptable punishment, if any at all, so I know. Consider the dual nature of your crime, one as a king (other land invasion) and one as a player (your actions can't be considered just the actions of a responsable king). Punishing just the king sounds like dumping the garbadge on that part of your role.

reading the other things i saw in the above discussions make my head spinn, i won't reply to them.

I'm sorry, but there are few things confusing me here...
before, Yrthilian mentioned how he can't respond to Lifeline in appropriate manner, cause Land Wars in game aren't allowed yet, so he'll stick to other means... Then how can this be classified as an invasion if there is no Land War feature?

Also, it is my belief that Lifeline is feeling hurt cause a very rare spell (Chase) was taken from him, despite he (as he said) didn't abuse it.

Oh! Poor ,poor, Lifeline , i can almost see you crying , pity him he got his toys removed.... i;m sure he;ll get new ones if he works hard enough!

Not that my opinion really matters, but anyway :

IMO, the punishment was too darn small. If I would have been part of the council I would have closed all ppl involved in jail until the proper punishment would have been set.
Also I would have removed the means used to this sacrilege.



Lifeline, do consider yourself lucky that Mur took this matter into his own hands.

Personally I would like him to accept another trial from players / council. That way, ppl (you and me included) would see what a real punishment would be like.

Also you might have a chance to read more about your bs.


--------------

have fun, I certainly do

You setup a trial because the punishment is too hard, but you're willing to risk everything for it?

This says more than enough to me.

The spoiler contains tipu's post I just want to keep it in there because I just have a small comment and I don't want to waste a whole hell of a lot of space.
[spoiler]
[quote name='Tipu' timestamp='1290597966' post='73012']
I understood u want to take on ur own shoulders and iam on my mission lord.
The supreme duty of every Citizen is to defend his King and iam only doing my duties so no need any thanks lord. Well iam posting few more points hope this helps u in ur trial.

11) Spoiler is again an offense in MD right? But how come u can have Alts then, Ok let me explain this
Lets take two scenario:
First
a)Lets say player 'A' Join MD and plays for 200 active days
b)Player 'B' joins in
c)Player 'A' gives all the spoilers of MD to player 'B'
Player 'A' gets punished cos he has given all info which he knows to player 'B' and thats spoiler.ok
Second
a)Player 'A' joins MD and plays for 200 active days
b)Then player 'A' creates his Alt player 'A1'. Now player 'A1' knows everything what player 'A' knows(how to solve bresker puzzle, How to beat LR guards, knows which ritual to be used to increase certain stats and many more it goes on)
My point what difference it make btw player 'B' and 'A1'. Cos now player 'A1' becomes legal. Even thought all the spoilers or fact are shared btw player A and A1 but thats legal????
Now if i had the RED button i would have used it and removed all the alts from the system just one account per IP address. . Now how fare is my decision for those who have really worked hard to bring there alts up.
My point is different people interpolate rules and systems in different way i just took one example about 'spoiler'. So player will have different option about rules closed or restricted means.

12) About alche statue " the reason why that statue is build because he discovered MDA lands long before it was official opened. Any one who sees that statue will be under the impression that going to the places that can't be access is a great Achievement to do. The place that is not official opened is an restricted area or a closed area. if so why the statue then. If that is called adventure where is Manda's statue near the cave in fact it should be two

13) If training with the Libs is against the rule then how about players using the armors in GG during HC contest. I mean every one knows that they r steeling head from the armor (why steeling - most of them don't have creatures left for fighting, so basically u click them u get their heads). No action is taken to prevent that and non punished. I know why.. it is just cos' VETS can't participate in HC. Imagine DST is allowed in participating in HC and u try to steel heads from the armor u will no doubt will end up counting the bar behind prison hehe ( Sorry DST to put ur name there).

14) Who has more authority ...
A MD char or a King . I belive A MD char since he have done good or bad thing for the entire MD realm and not just a part of land. On that text what Lord Lifeline did is correct to my view.

15) When MB and GG was still in taking period about the whole incident, why did the announcement pointed about the gravity about a King not concern about the other land territory. King of GG already punished lifeline in that regard "MB citizens will be attacked in GG territory". And it should be decided between the two king. The punishment should only be given for entering the cave and not for trespassing the territory that remains with GG king.

16) Some say that Lord life line was trying to take over GG. ho yes he is trying to take over GG with some fresh mp5 players who r struggling to find a Win. And remember even GG citizens where included in that group. So this can considered as a joke .

lord I have few more points but no time today. thanks
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

Ok your player is A1 so its about telling another player not another character. Though the two terms get used almost interchangeably don't make the mistake that they are the same. I don't play alts but I dont think we should ban them. Some people like to see the game in a different way I just don't.

Your 16th point is also a problem. Trying to take over the GG with mp 5 players is not the problem. The problem was the location they entered once they entered the GG.

You have a lot of other ideas but I am not going to correct them for the reason they are not relevant during the current event. If you want to make a suggestion in a new thread I welcome you too but here is not the place.

Lifeline,

I should aslo add this: This trial is a joke.

Not that I'm insulting Mur or anyone else about it, but the fact that you're complaining about losing a spell, whereas, you would gladly give up your head for something of which is so minor. What is the actual conflict here? You were punished, I see how, in no way, that you could have possibly been unsatisfied with that. Mur could have easily given a harsher punishment, but he didn't. Be lucky, because you're the one not stuck in the Lair. You got away with a loss of a spell and a Kingship point. Please, tell me if that is not slapping your hand and saying not to do it again.

You're a King. You get away with plenty of things that others' don't. Maybe you're seeing that, and relating that to your arguments, however, might I remind you that you -are- KING. Acting like a child and throwing a tantrum does not get you what you want, and I am surprised that Mur is taking his time with this.

Personally, I feel fairly saddened that it's been brought up to this point of which it has been made. Are you working for reasonable, harsher punishment? Or fighting to get your little spell back? Or are you working to remove all punishment in general? [Rhetorical question.]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1290585508' post='73000']

By the way, direct quotes from chatlog (with other things removed, [url="http://storenow.net/my/?f=2440"]full log[/url] courtesy of dst):
[18/11/10 06:44] Grido:my questioning would be as to weather Mur said, as i recall,that people weren't meant to go there?
[18/11/10 06:44] Grido:particularly since i got an alt banned because it was sitting in there
[18/11/10 06:45] Grido:pretty certain people aren't allowed to go there
[18/11/10 06:45] Grido:still, Drach Lair is out of bounds last i checked
[18/11/10 06:46] Grido:Because as i recall, Mur madea point of blocking it
[18/11/10 06:47] Grido:like i said, an alt of mine got banned for just sitting in there
[18/11/10 06:48] Grido:because i'm 95% certain an email is going to hit them telling them people are inside Drach Lair soon

[18/11/10 06:53] Seigheart:Grido, I'll take my chances at the lair. It's a risk I an willing to take.

Grido mentioned MULTIPLE times lair wasn't allowed, Seigheart went ahead with it anyways.
[/quote]

since seigheart was pardoned i think RJ and lifeline have the right to say they were unfairly punished. seigheart KNEW it was against rules but he kept on going (he set the whole ting up). this is a fact as shown above. now if he gets RJ and lifeline to go with him without saying it is against rules who is to blame? i know for a fact RJ didn't know because of our convo in the drach cave, and when he found out there was a question of it being legal we left. in fact when i asked RJ how does a GGG work he said to me i don't know i am waiting for seigheart to come online so he can get this going. if you all really want to yell about someone breaking rules it would be seigheart ! yet he gets pardoned?

[quote name='pipster' timestamp='1290627433' post='73091']
since seigheart was pardoned i think RJ and lifeline have the right to say they were unfairly punished. seigheart KNEW it was against rules but he kept on going (he set the whole ting up). this is a fact as shown above. now if he gets RJ and lifeline to go with him without saying it is against rules who is to blame? i know for a fact RJ didn't know because of our convo in the drach cave, and when he found out there was a question of it being legal we left. in fact when i asked RJ how does a GGG work he said to me i don't know i am waiting for seigheart to come online so he can get this going. if you all really want to yell about someone breaking rules it would be seigheart ! yet he gets pardoned?
[/quote]

Actually, Pip, it was completely RJ's idea to go to the Drach Lair, the original plan was to go to the Plains of Fear, or another generally unaccessible location. I had no part in the coming up of the plan, and I was never actually sent to the Drach Lair due to a mistake. The whole conversation that was brought up was because I WASN'T sent and I wanted to go that I was willing to risk getting in trouble.

I technically didn't do ANYTHING wrong, except try to join them.

So please, before you make judgements, or make remarks, learn the full story before.

~V

i dont know if my english just sucks or if people dont read clearly. i said in my first sentence of my last post that this isnt about if i am guilty or not. i wouldnt have teleported everybody out if i thought i wasnt guilty. and mur i told u in an email as well that i know that i am guilty. i just didnt know that i committed something that was a crime but after talking to akasha i realized that it indeed was one.
and as for punishment there exists 3 types of punishments: temporary ones, permanent ones and irrecoverable ones. looking at almost all punishments given they are almost all temporary (jail, stat reduction, curses, warnings, ect). a punishment that is both permanent and irrecoverable (meaning the punished thing wont ever be gained back) happens only for the worst crimes i saw so far. and i will say it once again i know i am guilty i just wasnt aware that i committed a crime and that bringing more than 2 people inside the drach lair/closed location is never stated as crime. so what i am asking for is a warning along with a reasonable punishment for something that isnt anywhere defined as crime especially for people i teleported who didnt even know they would end up in drach lair.
but to make it really clear a MD where court and laws are enforced like this is not an environment my character lifeline can survive in. so if this is what MD is then my character will die in that world.

Actually, to that i can only say...The abuse of a privilege will lead to it being lost. That's happened multiple times, and the sentence I said was even a quote from an announcement in MD.

Spells lost? A lot of rpc spells have been removed. (also a quote) I for example lost my fireball spell? Which is far worse than your tiny chase, if you knew what it did. Did I complain? No. It might even be the most powerful spell in MD, if it hasn't been fixed.

Perhaps you just ought to see you keeping chase as an extended keep of it, until Mur decided to remove it..such special movement spells were never meant for players originally.

Also:
Isn't it comparable to as if you used GoE to get someone out of jail and/or break out of it yourself? Jail is also restricted, just like drach lair was, announced a while ago, and I doubt you did not know of it.

Maybe I missed something, but I have been following all of this, and I don't know how all of a sudden people are accusing Lifeline of being in a mood because he lost a spell now as the main focus of this 'trial'? He made it very clear, right from the start, that the reason he is doing this is far more of a moral stance on behalf of those unjustly (his sentiment) punished including himself. Now I understand the sentiment of wondering: if he takes issue with how the rules and regulations are enforced why has he taken this long to react? but perhaps this was the straw that broke the camel's back?

I am not going to comment on the defence about the word closed, RJ's reputation and the like, because I would only be repeating what has been said, all be it in another way, its still just repetition. Suffice to say, I don't think any of these are reasonable defences. I do not think you yourself, Lifeline, have any defence on this one I'm afraid.

The one thing that does stick though, is the following:

On behalf of others, you claim unfair punishment where no knowledge of their own travel to the lair existed for many who were punished.

I do not think there is much one can argue against this point. Random teleportation is not a choice, although we are assuming here of course that choice comes into this, and that the very action of existing in that location at all for whatever reason fair or not is not a punishable offence. This assumption may very well be wrong.

In addition to the above, I can only think of one argument, and it isn't one that many people will like - but it is none the less something to consider: All people transported are more than likely to have been involved in this GGG training plan in general to have been on the "to be transported list". Players on the whole should be aware that the GGG has been openly condemned not only by a number of public figures and community members, but by Mur himself on the forum in an 'unofficial' capacity as having quite a negative aspect on the realm as a whole. Going against all of the latter, members of GGG groups have been getting increasingly crafty to try to avoid being found so they can continue their training. Based on this, a plea of ignorance to the teleportation into the drach lair seems most likely to be a case of 'oh crap, lucky I was idle and can claim ignorance'.

It isn't perfect, but for me I find it quite intuitive.

Z