Why the sun?

[Malaikat Maut]

As a followup to my previous post, I just recalled some additional information. Awii had said, "a sun is not necessary for what we might term as "life." Only a source of energy". This is not at all accurate. First, all known life forms are carbon based. Second, if it weren't for stars the universe would be filled with little else but hydrogen.

What I really came back to say, however, is that the existence of carbon itself is an absolute wonder. Which quite possibly means that the existence of any elements heavier than carbon (which has an atomic number of only 6) is also miraculous. From an article on the topic:

[i]Carbon, the "element of life," is produced only by miraculous nuclear reactions taking place in the core of huge stars. If there were no such reactions, there would not be carbon-or any other elements-in the universe and therefore, no life. We say "miraculous" because these transformations cannot take place under normal conditions, but require a combination of the most improbable factors.

Carbon atoms are produced in the core of huge stars by a two-tier process. First, two helium atoms fuse to produce a transitional element with four protons and four neutrons called beryllium. When a third helium atom fuses with beryllium, they produce a carbon atom with six protons and neutrons.

The beryllium atom produced in the first stage of this process is different from the beryllium atoms found on Earth, since the element beryllium listed in our periodic table boasts one additional neutron. The unusual beryllium isotope found in red giants has long puzzled scientists, since it is extremely unstable, so much so that it disintegrates 0.000000000000001 (10-15) seconds after it was formed.[/i]

Source: http://www.harunyahya.com/books/science/chain/chain2b.php

[Kaya]

Our world is made of smaller bundles of energy turning around bigger bundles of energy, the earth turning around it's core, planets around a star, stars around a black hole etc...

And now for the question why the sun, the stars have enough energy to send it out but don't have so much energy that they suck up their own energy. because of that stars make live able around them, and of course the sun is the star closest to the earth of which we best feel the present.

[Sasha Lilias]

I that quote rather odd Mala....It may just be the way I'm reading it due to tiredness...but it seems to be trying to say that Carbon and Beryllium are products of helium? This would, of course, be completely untrue seeing as this would then make Carbon a compound( created due to two or more [u]different[/u] elements reacting together ), not an element. :?

[color="#FF0000"]Edit 1: I'm sorry Mala. I just re-read what you posted. Your talking about the Tri-Alpha process? Yes? If so then disregard what I put last Though you do realise...how unlikely the Tri-Alpha process is...right?[/color]

[color="#0000FF"]Edit 2: [quote]Our world is made of smaller bundles of energy turning around bigger bundles of energy, the earth turning around it's core, planets around a star, stars around a black hole etc...[/quote]
This is wrong on so many levels...
(I will add my reasons tomorrow, so that I don't make any more mistakes ;P)[/color]

Edited February 25, 2011 by Sasha Lilias

[Kaya]

[quote name='Sasha Lilias' timestamp='1298672704' post='79628']
[color="#0000FF"]Edit 2:
This is wrong on so many levels...
(I will add my reasons tomorrow, so that I don't make any more mistakes ;P)[/color]
[/quote]

I know, I was unable to put to worths what I really wanted to say, I'll try again tomorrow.

[Brulant]

[quote name='Sasha Lilias' timestamp='1298672704' post='79628']
I that quote rather odd Mala....It may just be the way I'm reading it due to tiredness...but it seems to be trying to say that Carbon and Beryllium are products of helium? This would, of course, be completely untrue seeing as this would then make Carbon a compound( created due to two or more [u]different[/u] elements reacting together ), not an element. :?
[/quote]

Carbon, and all other elements heavier than carbon, are created in stars or by stars exploding. In Carbon's case, three alpha particles, an already existing helium nucleus, two protons, and two neutrons all hit each other and form the Carbon element.

Compounds are created from two or more elements, and Carbon obviously isn't something like HeBe2

Think of it more as Helium being beefed up and moved to another state of being. By adding more protons to Helium, it is no longer Helium.
However, we humans don't have the means to add/remove protons without it being dangerous and requiring absolutely massive amounts of energy.
Otherwise people would be breaking open old T.V. screens and turning Mercury into Gold!
That's why it can only be done by crazy random happenstance inside of stars.

Edit:
[quote name='Sasha Lilias' timestamp='1298672704' post='79628']
[color="#FF0000"]Edit 1: I'm sorry Mala. I just re-read what you posted. Your talking about the Tri-Alpha process? Yes? If so then disregard what I put last Though you do realise...how unlikely the Tri-Alpha process is...right?[/color]
[/quote]

*facepalm* Sorry, for some reason my eyes just skipped right over the red font. You can disregard what I said above.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Brulant

[apophys]

EDIT: regarding the posts directly above about carbon, it is a NUCLEAR reaction, not a chemical one. In helium-burning stars, helium-4 + helium-4 fuse to form beryllium-8, which fuses with another helium-4 to make carbon-12. This does not require a supernova; it's a normal stage in many stars' life. And yes, beryllium-8 is extremely unstable (half-life 7*10^-17 seconds).

[quote name='Sharazhad' timestamp='1298645934' post='79600'][i][color="#4169e1"]
Light is a prerequisite for life. Without it we are nothing. It is the energy source for ALL living things[/color][/i].
[/quote]
It is certainly possible for life to exist without light. A clear example is the ecosystem around hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor. It's pretty much completely isolated, and bases itself on bacteria consuming the hydrogen sulfide in the ejected water. Tube worms eat the bacteria, etc.


Gravity pulls interstellar dust and gas together. As it contracts, it begins to spin. This becomes an accretion disk. The center turns into a star, and the surroundings may become planets. There are [url="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_sci_cosmic_census"]at least 50 billion planets in the Milky Way galaxy, of which at least 500 million are capable of having liquid water.[/url] (This is just our own galaxy. Among galaxies, the Milky Way isn't very special.)


Back to "why the sun."
I remember that Bootes had a quest regarding the solar system of MD, which I did not participate in. [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/1968-m-b-the-sun-that-never-sets/page__p__13001#entry13001"]Thread link.[/url]

We project our experiences in explaining MD. My projection is similar to hypothesis A from Bootes' quest.
[log=details]
I think that MD is on or near the geographic pole of a planet, a planet with the axis of revolution pointed toward the star it orbits (i.e. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_tilt"]axial tilt[/url] is close to 90 degrees), much [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus#Orbit_and_rotation"]like Uranus[/url]. This situation keeps the sun constantly in the sky above MD.

Explaining night is more difficult, because I don't know anything about the moon, and I can't look up to see it. (I am assuming that there is no intended reason I can't look up. Are we purposefully prevented from observing the sky?) Since the sun does not move, night must come by an eclipse.
The conclusion of Bootes that the moon is a dead star orbiting the sun seems to me impossible; any planets around a binary star system would be torn to shreds by tidal forces. It could be a gas giant, but it would be very unlikely for a gas giant to form between a star and a small rocky planet that has liquid water.
More likely the Moon is an object orbiting planet MD, or MD is on a moon orbiting a larger planet. Either way, the moon would rise and set on the horizon of MD. I don't know if this is the case or not.
[/log]

Edited February 26, 2011 by apophys

[Aelis]

I think the Sun represents strenght, perhaps needed to unlock our Inner Sun?
In the AL we can read:

Page 97 [2008-12-18 03:22:22 - The Inner Sun - Ren., Am.]
"I channeled all of my energy into the Quill. It was the thing that most closely identified with my mind, you see. When the darkness completely consumed my body, the quill, with my soul and essence, remained glowing. It glowed with the fierceness of the sun, and drove the darkness out. It is here, always, that I wake from the hellish nightmare."

There, the light drove the darkness. And a bit later it says his Inner Sun is unlocked. Perhaps the Sun is there to balance the darkness within? To help each one with his own Inner Sun. (Of course I don't know the exact meaning of Inner Sun, and would love to know more about it, if someone has information to share! I certainly would love to learn more in order to find my own Sun!)

There are a lot of good lines of thought in this topic, mine is maybe a different approach on the main question.



~Aelis

[Muratus del Mur]

Enough
deep does not mean elaborate
your astronomy knowledge showoff or supositions isn't gonna give you access to border research. Some things i saw don't go well with my fragile temper..like "planet MD", but of course each has the honest right to various opinions.

my point is , dont get lost in pointless details and forget the question, it prevents others from elaborating their shy but maybe valuable opinion

[Curiose]

I'm pretty much not going to bother reading all of the responses.

1. The sun is a source of energy.
-This leads to heat.
-heat in turn [in game mechanics] is used to supply others with energy.

[in an argument against this, some creatures can survive without sunlight, such as in the abyssal plains and survive on sulfur spewed from volcanic vents.]

2. The source is a symbolic meaning
-It means life.


Opinion:
The sun is a point of gravitation. It is a powerful thing, and large enough to support billions of forms of life. Now, Sotis stands for: Solders of the INNER sun. Not THE SUN. Now, what exactly is the inner point of the sun? If we went into 'detail' that would be the planetary core-- but in game terms, it must mean something more, and therefore, is what gives it the status that Sotis has.

[Sephirah Caelum]

[quote name='Darigan' timestamp='1298667256' post='79622']
Mistletoe bridge is one and you can see the sun's rays pouring through the clouds at Wasp's totem and through the leaves of Ravenhold, I'm sure I've seen it other places as well
[/quote]


The sun can also be "seen" in East Lands, looking at the shadows that appear from the pillars and the light that cross the windows.

[Ravenstrider]

So the Beatles could write this wonderful song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6tV11acSRk

[Kay Ingild]

"Ever wondered why there is a sun?"

My first response was, That's simple. There's a sun because, first, the laws of physics; second, because there are beings dependent on it who are intelligent enough to ascribe meanings to it beyond those of other stars and thus call it a "sun"; third, because of random chance that the laws of physics ended up the way they did, that a particular star arose in a particular location and acquired a particular kind of planet at a particular distance from the star, that life arose, and furthermore that intelligent life arose. So I wanted to say that it all comes down to random chance, contingency.

Then I thought a bit more. Maybe the important part of the question was "ever wondered why" there is a sun. So my second response was, Not until now. I may have when I was very young, but I don't remember doing so. If I did, I would probably have been placated with a vaguely sciencey answer. I guess it takes a different kind of mind to wonder such things, one that doesn't just accept the word of those in authority, provisionally or not. I wondered about the kinds of people who WOULD think in this way; wondered about origin myths and the kinds of people who might have come up with them; wondered about the gap between a child's mind and an adult's mind; wondered whether I could train my mind to think in this fashion.

Then I thought, my second response can't possibly be the kind of answer you're looking for. That would be treating the question like a trick question. So I turned back to what seemed like the most natural starting point to me, and wondered whether there might be regularities in the structure of space-time that would make stars likely to happen. I mean, there sure seem to be plenty of stars. But not knowing much of anything about astrophysics, I gave up with that line of enquiry.

I tried out another idea: what if there is a sun because the creator of the universe decided it should exist? Presumably then there would be a sun, providing heat/light/energy, because we, either as life in general or as humans in particular, being a significant element in creation for whatever reason, need it. But then why do we need heat/light/energy, and also why was this energy provided in the form of a distant gigantic ball of matter undergoing fusion? This scenario would open many other possibilities for answers, too, metaphoric and symbolic reasons, possibly important to the creator, as to why the sun exists, why it is the way it is. Answers I'm not really qualified to go looking for, as I'm not used to thinking in terms of metaphors and symbols. Perhaps the warmth of the sun would represent the tangible presence of the creator, like the body heat of another person standing next to us; perhaps the reason for the light of the sun is that it allows us to see and know and thus marvel at creation… ugh. I'm not very good at this. Apparently according to a quick Google search the sun also represents an eye, possibly the eye of the creator. I'm... really not good at this stuff.

Back to physics, then. Why are there stars? Because there's matter, there's gravity that pulled matter together… Why is there matter? Why is there something instead of nothing?

I don't know where to go from here. I'd have to say my final answer is that I have no answer. All I have are questions.

[Tipu]

Why sun?
ahh otherwise how can we play..i mean u can't expect us to play in complete darkness hehe.
Just take a walk in the underground with the port holes closed(the ones which provides sunlight),u should be lucky if u find the exit of the tunnel hehe.
Yes candles can replace Sun but we might need 300+ candles and a wired story about how candles came to MD hehe.

[Seigheart]

The way I see it, the Sun is our Goal.

Each one of us has a Final Goal, and the Sun is a magnificant representation of that.

If we were all insects, it is the light to which we must fly, even if there are light bulbs, and fly traps along the way, we must do our best to stay clear and fly towards the Sun, our Final Goal.

If anyone has any questions about this, I could write an entire essay about it.

[Kaya]

At first I thought the sun is there because without it we wouldn't be here either, however when I started reading I noticed that had already been said several times so saying it again wouldn't be useful.

So I continued thinking and realized the important part the sun plays in cyclicity, without the sun the earth wouldn't turn around in a circle, but would move in a straight line towards... Well... Away from everything. I'm not sure what to conclude from that.

After that I noticed the sun plays a major part in many of the principles. In entropy the sun plays the part of probably the most important source of energy. The sun gives for example energy to the plants, in turn the plants use that energy to grow and create cells and other structures dividing the world in ordered , the plants on their turn get eaten by animals that are even more advanced organized structures. Because of that it is also the start of syntropy.

It's obvious that the sun plays an important part in the principle of light as it's main source. It also plays a role in the principle of darkness by giving it a meaning as it's counter part.

So the sun exists because without it there would be an impossible gap in the principles.


Maybe I'll work on it some more later but for now this should be good enough.
And [url="http://magicduel.com/index.php?pag=principles&c=&p=entropiei&type=browser%20game"]here[/url] you can find the explanation of the principle of enthropy and the other principles.

[Pipstickz]

From a more literal perspective:
The sun is in MD because the sun is in RL. When designing the game, Mur wanted a believable, yet different world. What's easier, listening to people claim that if we lived in a black hole we wouldn't be living, or having a sun?

From a more "MD" perspective:
There is a sun because MD is a "mirror" reflecting what's in us, but at the same time being the same to everyone who sees it. The sun is a part of MD's own identity and a part of ours put together and thrown in the mixing bowl of ideas.

[Tarquinus]

[quote name='Luke27' timestamp='1298638262' post='79589']
In MD terms:
I actually haven't found out yet but I guess it has something to do with balance. But maybe not because there's no moon in MD or even a night.
[/quote]
Sure about that, are you?

[Luke27]

[quote name='Tarquinus' timestamp='1298869098' post='79704']
Sure about that, are you?
[/quote]

Like I said I haven't found any proof whatsoever and I don't have the proper knowledge of MD yet so I can't give an exact answer.
I consider myself as a newb still because of that.

And by the way to clarify/revise the last part of my previous post so that it will answer "Ever wondered why there is a Sun?":

In MY terms:
The sun is there because:
It's a being that represents guidance.
It's a being that should be looked up to.
It's a being that gives itself selflessly for others benefits.

[Malaikat Maut]

I have seen the moon in MagicDuel.

[ooc]I must apologize for not reading the thread location before posting before. I assumed this was in offtopic and therefore about our Earthen Sun rather than that of the game world.[/ooc]


Edit: And we don't have ooc tags here...

Edited February 28, 2011 by Malaikat Maut

[Pipstickz]

Just some offtopic clarification, search the announcements for moon/night info:
[2010-05-21 02:13:19 - Stage 10]
[2009-01-17 21:13:15 - Alpha 8]

[phantasm]

The sun is the giver of life. It allows plants to photosynthisys, which in turn create oxygen, which in turn give us life.

I feel that the sun is a symbol. It is like 'God' in the respect that we can not survive without it, and it gives us all we have now to the simplest form. Without the sun there would be no warmth, so things would become blind and die. The moon would not shine becuase there would be no sun to reflect its image to us. Without the sun there simply wouldn't be. Much like ANY scripture with religion about God. Without God we are nothing, with him we are everything. Without Sun we are nothing, with it we are everything.

[apophys]

[quote name='Malaikat Maut' timestamp='1298901260' post='79718']
we don't have ooc tags here...
[/quote]

That's probably because the forum is not for roleplay.


Without the sun, plants would die, the world would be extremely cold, and the population would require a very high level of technology to survive (which would make this a sci-fi game). So the sun is a prerequisite for the realm to exist in its current state.

[Tissy]

There are lives, there are deaths.
There is light, there is death.
There is inhale, there is exhale.

Everything appears, followed by its disappearance.

The cosmos is a vast void, lives and substance perish into the void eventually, as well as the sun.
But at this moment, the sun is breeding lives, infusing paiticle with energy to create substance from the void.
So there should be a sun of suns to breed the suns, and of course sun of suns of suns...
At last, all bred by suns breed the void, and it comes to the BALANCE.

And I'm thinking about the SoTISs. They have no weapons and cast no magic.
How can such a soldier be a soldier?
I suppose the absorb damage and magic in a mysterious way. Weapons and magic are energies origined from the sun. Too much energy floating in the world means our sun, among many others, are feeding the void too fast. Absorbing energy may help keep the balance forward at a rational pace, thus guard the sun from perishing too soon.
But why INNER sun? I still have no idea.

ps. I'm not good at English. I would apprieciate if anyone corrects my words or rephases my sentences in a rhythmic and literary way.

[Muratus del Mur]

[b]I will post my version of the answer in a separate topic. It is not "correct" answer or the "best" or the one i am expecting or whatever such thing.
As I said, sotis members will be asked to provide their OWN answer to this question and this answer defines them, its hold their personality and views. Feel free to continue the discussion here, and use the other topic just to comment that particular answer, not the question itself.

I hope I made myself clear.[/b]

[Menhir]

I am a little bit late (travelled through india for the sixth time when Mur startetd this topic) and people might have forgotten his question already, nevertheless I will write something wich crossed my mind when I was reading some of the given answers.

The first thing was: "As above So below".

Endless people are talking about a light inside ourselfs but you can believe it or find out by yourselfs. I do not believe things - I have to prove them by myself instead. So I started looking and after awhile I saw the Sun inside myself - I saw much more than this mighty pure light but there were so many more things that I had to stop in this particular moment. So I KNOW there is a Sun inside myself, attending the “rest” of the universe. Then I saw the Sun in someone else, well I was not surprised but amazed . “As above So below” – If there is a Sun wich we can see, there must be one inside ourselfs. If there are shades outside ourselfs, there are shades inside ourselfs for sure. Everything wich exist “outside” is automaticly “inside” and there is a point where one can understand (means KNOW) that there is neither an outside nor an inside. Everything is existing and at the same time there is nothing. <- these are just words but it´s possible to have the experience to see/feel/understand, finnaly KNOW that it´s like I try to put into weak words.

Why it´s called "Soldiers of the Inner Sun" (if Mur´s questions was referring to the title) I don´t know yet clearly. A soldier from my point of view stands for "fighting" and "war" and there was nothing like "fighting" or "war" combined with my inner sun, but there might be another interpretation of the word "soldier".

So the second thing was crawling towards me hiding behind a curtain of mist:

If you see something like the Sun and in this case you don´t need to make a difference between inner or outer Sun, if you see it with you own eyes/mind/awareness you are so sure about what you see/experience because that is what you think you are - consciousness/awareness.

Are you?

Were do you know it from?

From the same consciousness?

Well ... there is much more beyond this and again I touch it only with words and nothing will help me to explain it with agglutinated letters, but to realise this through real knowing is the most suffusing experience I had so far.

So why the Sun?

Why <- the most powerful word in the whole universe brings us to neverending questions (I quote Mur here)!
If we are trying to explain things with seperated minds you end up with open ends. To answer every question until the end we need to put all ourselfs into it and I mean it word by word.

We need our material way of forced living, I use the terms “needs and fears” for this.

We need also our so called “spiritual” way of being, that could be everything outside ourself wich we are not really aware of in our daily lifetime, call it soul or whatever you may like to call it.

And finally we need our philosophically thinking (understanding) - lets use the words “manly logic”.

Each of those three separated from each other will not get anyone to any real conclusion but if one can succeed to put all three together, combine them to a “big one pot”, to a universal understanding and make it useful and possible to evolve to that kind of “new knowledge” (in the end everything is old and at the same time ageless) – if one can do that he/she/it will really KNOW.

Well what´s this blubbering all about and why do I write it here and now – I´m nearly always honest – I don´t know! It crossed “my” mind and I put it into those clumsy words above.

Why the Sun?

Why is Mur asking this question?

This is my most sensible question I can ask back and I got many answers for it at the same time .

Menhir

Edited July 13, 2011 by Menhir